Between Science and Spirituality

The Chronicle of Higher Education ^ | Nov. 29, 2002 | John Horgan

[beckett]

The cloud of unknowing beyond which we cannot see. Why is there something rather than nothing?

I realize Horgan seems to take sides on some contentious issues. It is not my purpose in posting the article to endorse them all. I just thought that for such a short piece he did an good job of presenting the problem, and of describing an approach to it that closely -- but not exactly -- coincides with my own.

[Gary Boldwater]

The real question is not "why is the universe is what it is?", but rather "how could it possibly be anything else?". The former is an attempt to refute the laws of identity and causality, that latter affirms it.

[Free the USA]

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list

[Hank Kerchief]

The cloud of unknowing beyond which we cannot see.

All that matters is what you can see and what you can know. There is nothing else. It is exactly that, nothing, and to the extent one wastes their minds on what is not, they waste their lives.

Hank

[thinktwice]

what sort of truth would a rational mysticism give us?

Answer ... No truth whatsoever.

The author begins with a figure of speech in which opposite or contradictory ideas or terms are combined ... an "oxymoron."

Check your premises.

[Abcdefg]

Introspection and this kind of philosophy has its place, but life is for living.
Treat yourself well, help others and enjoy this life.

[D-fendr]

The Clouding of Unknowing is not about a boundary beyond which we cannot see, but about how to approach knowledge beyond other forms of mental conceptualization.

You find the same practice among all the major experiential religions.

As for Science and Spirituality: Science is by definition without value, without qualitative measurement. This limits it's abillity to be used beyond the subset of those things capable of being detected by the senses (and their extensions), beyond that which has specific location in time and space and that which can be numbered and quantified.

So, it can be helpful in increasing knowledge but, as with logic/reason, it is insufficient a tool for approaching the realm of religion - the absolute in terms of values, truth, purpose, etc.

As another put it: science can only describe what is, not what ought.

[taxed2death]

You need to read the book "The physics of consiousness".

Every time I finish it, I pick it up and start over again..I've read it 6-1/2 times so far. The first half is heavy into the history of physics, put into an amusing, yet not dumbed down, lay-mans terms, the second half ties into spirituality (Buddism in particular) although 95% of it can be related to Christianity.......because he delves into the "spirituality" of religions, rather than the dogma.

Truley facinating book, I highly recommend it to any FReepers who are inquisitive about either Physics and / or Spirituality and how they are related. His breakdown of quantum mechanics is an excellent read in itself.

[beckett]

The Clouding of Unknowing is not about a boundary beyond which we cannot see, but about how to approach knowledge beyond other forms of mental conceptualization.

A perfect example of a gobbledygook sentence which ends up either saying the same thing it pretends to contradict, or saying nothing at all.

The unknown 14th century author of the Cloud of Unknowing is smiling somewhere, I'm sure.

[beckett]

Thank you -- I will put the book on my list.

[taxed2death]

Sorry if I have offended any Buddists out there, I did not mean to imply that Buddism was NOT a religion in my above post. Sorry for the gaff.

[f.Christian]

If tou want mysticism...the occult---that's evolution!

Big bang/pond doo-goo glop/morph are opposites of science....sorta the rope-a-dope clown science on a spring!

[f.Christian]

If you want mysticism...the occult---that's evolution!

Big bang/pond doo-goo glop/morph are opposites of science....sorta the rope-a-dope clown science on a spring!

[freedumb2003]

And if life doesn't grab our attention, death will.

Uh, yeah it will... but (assuming we are talking about the moment of demise), that moment of attention is pretty useless. It is like getting the license number of the bus that runs you over.

Lots of Fun post, but it goes from a useful thesis (the more scientific facts you uncover, the more it proves God) to psychobabble (there are things we can't know, but we don't know what they are... if we knew, we'd know, but we don't know so we can't know).

Trust me, if you drop an egg on the floor, it hits, splats, and makes a mess, no matter what mystical relativistic observational philosophical perspective you take. What greater truth can there be?

[freedumb2003]

And if life doesn't grab our attention, death will.

Uh, yeah it will... but (assuming we are talking about the moment of demise), that moment of attention is pretty useless. It is like getting the license number of the bus that runs you over.

Lots of Fun post, but it goes from a useful thesis (the more scientific facts you uncover, the more it proves God) to psychobabble (there are things we can't know, but we don't know what they are... if we knew, we'd know, but we don't know so we can't know).

Trust me, if you drop an egg on the floor, it hits, splats, and makes a mess, no matter what mystical relativistic observational philosophical perspective you take. What greater truth can there be?

[taxed2death]

Sorry, I don't really know how to take your post.

Maybe I'm pissing into the wind hear, but my take on the matter is that most religions are based on a core of spirituality. I've been raised a Christian, I also like to read about other religions, seeking out commonalities. Most religions have the equivilance of "the ten commandmants", although they might not be expressed in the same straight forward way. If you would take the "ten commandments" to heart, and do your honest best to be "Christ-like" in every action, you would be living by the tenets of most religions.

You might have confused my comments on religion and spirituality....there is a difference. Just as there is a difference between spirituality and mysticism. There is also a difference between Mysticism and the occult. I figured I'd get knocked around by someone who was confused by my post :)

The book I mentioned is interesting because it tries (and does an excellent job) of tying in Science and Spirituality. The Religion the author chose to use as a guide was Buddism, mainly because unlike Christianity, the religion of Buddism seems to lend itself better to this particular subject. This is an observation on my part and should not be taken in any way as a slam on Christianity.

Consequently, the book supports a supreme being, so you can chill out.

It does an excellent job (IMHO) of showing how such a Supreme being parallels with current theories of quantum physics. In a nutshell it is one of the few reads that supports science and Spirituality, (or religion, if you choose).

[f.Christian]

Creation/God...REFORMATION(Judeo-Christianity)---secular-govt.-humanism/SCIENCE---CIVILIZATION!

Originally the word liberal meant social conservatives(no govt religion--none) who advocated growth and progress---mostly technological(knowledge being absolute/unchanging)based on law--reality... UNDER GOD---the nature of GOD/man/govt. does not change. These were the Classical liberals...founding fathers-PRINCIPLES---stable/SANE scientific reality/society---industrial progress...moral/social character-values(private/personal) GROWTH(limited NON-intrusive PC Govt/religion---schools)!

Evolution...Atheism-dehumanism---TYRANNY(pc/liberal/govt-religion/rhetoric)...

Then came the SPLIT SCHIZOPHRENIA/ZOMBIE/BRAVE-NWO1984 LIBERAL NEO-Soviet Darwin/ACLU America---the post-modern...DARK/Dork---post-rational/logic age---

[D-fendr]

thanks for your reply.

Perhaps I misunderstood your use of "beyond which we cannot see."

Did you mean "see" literally or beyond which we cannot "know"?

[taxed2death]

ummmmmmm.......you're speaking in tongues again :)