Posted on 12/06/2002 4:15:15 PM PST by Beach_Babe
From: victor@usread.com [mailto:victor@usread.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 4:33 PM
To: Ted Lopatkiewicz
Subject: Open Letter in Re Jamaica Bay Pictures & Other Debris
To Whom It May Concern At The NTSB:
U.S.Read and The Wave are requesting the following from the NTSB related to the debris field in Jamaica Bay, and debris found on land a distance from the crash site:
1. Make available all photographs and video NTSB may possess taken in Jamaica Bay on November 12th, 2001
2. The Public Information Division (DCPI) at the NYPD, has stated to U.S.Read that they will not release any photographs or videotape taken by the NYPD unless the NTSB explicitly gives the "o.k." to do so. Therefore, U.S.Read and The Wave request that the NTSB contact DCPI at the NYPD and grant that authorization. Phone number for Lieutenant Burke at DCPI will be provided below. NTSB should specifically request that pictures taken by any NYPD units, including but not limited to:
(a) The Crime Scene Unit (CSU) in Jamaica, NY
(b) The Harbor Unit at Floyd Bennett Field
(c) The 100th Precinct
... should be released to U.S.Read and The Wave.
The CSU has informed U.S.Read that such pictures are considered "crime scene evidence" and "are never released except under order by a Judge". U.S.Read informed CSU that the NTSB announced at the Flight 587 Hearings that criminal activity has been ruled out, but CSU needs to hear this from the NTSB. CSU's phone number will also be provided below.
3. NTSB has in their possession several pictures taken by Witness # 321 of debris in the Bay that he and his friends recovered and then turned over to either an NYPD or Coast Guard vessel. This witness' boat was just east of the flight path along with witnesses # 18 and #122. U.S.Read and The Wave request the release of all the pictures surrendered to you by Witness # 321.
4. Several, if not dozens, of pieces of debris from flight 587 landed up to 3/4 statute mile away from the crash site, on land. Aside from the engines and tail section, the NTSB has provided no pictures in the Structures reports of that debris. Your Structures Report mentions the "left wingtip" at 116th Street but there was no specific mention or pictures of the following, for example:
(a) two "panels" found on the roof of the Rockaway Sunset Diner at 116th Street and Beach Channel Drive. These pieces were at least 8 square feet each.
(b) Witness # 292 describes a 4 foot by 4 foot section picked up at 116th street
(c) the left winglet at 125th street and Cronston Ave.
(d) what appeared to be a crew member's or flight attendant's seat belt near the winglet at 125th street. I have the names of the two residents who picked it up and surrendered it to the authorities. The seat belt was slightly sooted and left some residue on their hands.
U.S.Read requests the release of pictures (with descriptions) of all debris recovered away from the crash site and that the NTSB produce a map of this debris field. Seasoned Air Crash Investigators are surprised to learn that such a map does not exist.
5. On July 10th, 2002, a Rockaway resident submitted to an NYPD detective charred pages from a book (in English text) entitled "Manual of Islamic Behavior", that were said to have been recovered at the crash site. The FBI recovered other pages from this book on the day of the crash. The resident who surrendered the pages from this book to the NYPD did so with the understanding that a copy would be made and returned to this resident. This was not done. The NYPD forwarded these pages to FBI Special Agent (name withheld) in Queens, NY. The NYPD stated to U.S.Read that this is "an ongoing criminal investigation". U.S.Read sees yet another instance where the NTSB should update the NYPD (and perhaps the FBI) that this is an ongoing "accident" investigation. This might encourage the FBI to release the pages from the book back to the resident, or, if the FBI has connected these pages to a specific passenger on board 587, then perhaps the Family Affairs Office at the NTSB should ensure that the family of the passenger will be given this and any other personal effects the FBI may be withholding. Either way, there seems to be no legal basis (since there is no criminal investigation) for the FBI to continue holding this debris that either belongs to the resident who found it or to the family of the passenger.
The requests for Jamaica Bay pictures have been initiated due to corroborated eyewitness statements in the NTSB's Flight 587 docket, and in followup interviews with those witnesses by U.S.Read, that:
(a) luggage and escape chute(s) were seen falling out of the sky along with flight 587 and ...
(b) luggage and possibly one escape chute/raft were seen floating in Jamaica Bay immediately after the crash.
NTSB's current position, as you informed U.S.Read, is that no such debris fell into the Bay, or away from the main crash site.
Contacts:
1. DCPI @ NYPD - 646-610-xxxx, ext 8792
2. Crime Scene Unit - 718-558-xxxx and xxxx
Thank you
Victor Trombettas
victor@usread.com
U.S.Read / The Wave
From: Lopatkiewicz Ted
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:40:24 –0500
To: "'victor@usread.com'" victor@usread.com
Cc: FOIA foia@ntsb.gov
Subject: RE: Open Letter in Re Jamaica Bay Pictures & Other Debris
We have no wish or intention to interject ourselves into the document release procedures of other agencies.
As to the records in our possession, I am forwarding your request to our Freedom of Information Office, which is the proper entity to handle these matters.
From: Lopatkiewicz Ted lopatt@ntsb.gov
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:42:43 –0500
To: "'victor@usread.com'" victor@usread.com
Subject: RE: Open Letter in Re Jamaica Bay Pictures & Other Debris
Also, Victor, don't put words in our mouth. We said we had no information that such items as you asked about were recovered from the bay.
From: victor@usread.com [mailto:victor@usread.com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 10:46 AM
To: Lopatkiewicz Ted
Subject: Re: Open Letter in Re Jamaica Bay Pictures & Other Debris
Please don't change your wording and then accuse me of doing that.
I didn't ask if you had information. I asked simply if such debris was recovered. And your one word response was "negative". Now ... if you wish to clarify your statement, that's fine.
But saying you "have no information" is not accurate because you *did* have that information ... provided to you by witnesses the week of the crash. The real questions here of course are ... what happened to this debris? Did it all sink? Was it recovered by NYPD or Coast Guard and ... somehow ... the NTSB never got wind of it?
…and if this debris was there, how did it get there? What events on board 587 precipitated such a catastrophic and sudden fuselage breakup?
I spoke with Witness 117 last night, Ed, and spoke to his co-worker Andre--they were looking east from their truck at Floyd Bennett Field and saw a large square sized object, that looked to them like a luggage container, fall from 587 (from an area behind the wings in the belly of the craft) around the same time the tail blew off. They were both adamant this was not the tail or tail debris. This large object did not flutter down like the tail debris. It just fell straight down quickly into the Bay quite a distance from the seawall.
Subj: Re: Open Letter in Re Jamaica Bay Pictures & Other Debris
Date: 12/6/02 10:51:58 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: victor@usread.com
To: lopatt@ntsb.gov
thank you
I will forward your reply to the NYPD and inform them that the decision is theirs to make and the NTSB has no objection to their release of 587-related documents.
Victor
From: Lopatkiewicz Ted lopatt@ntsb.gov
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:55:49 –0500
To: "'victor@usread.com'" victor@usread.com
Subject: RE: Open Letter in Re Jamaica Bay Pictures & Other Debris
What I'm saying is that us saying it wasn't recovered is not the same as saying it didn't fall into the bay. Right?
Subj: Re: Open Letter in Re Jamaica Bay Pictures & Other Debris
Date: 12/6/02 11:36:33 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: victor@usread.com
To: lopatt@ntsb.gov
Oh please Ted
I didn't know we would have to dissect our words like this. But I have to remember, you work in D.C. The Word Dissection Capital.
Let's dissect: I said on Dec 4th : "While I have your attention ... was any of the following debris in the Bay?
a. Luggage or packages or any personal effects including papers and books.
b. any section of the fuselage
c. escape slide/raft"
OK? I said: "in the Bay".
You said "negative". You said two days ago what today you claim you didn't say.
Actually Ted, the real issue here is not this play on words. If I had lost a loved one on 587, I'd want to know that every stone was turned over, that the Bay was thoroughly and completely scanned ... every piece of crap pulled up from the Bay around the flight path of 587. I know for a fact the NYPD Harbor Unit didn't do this. I informed you of this several months ago. The NYPD was willing to go back out and re-scan the Bay. Instead, the door was slammed shut. Therefore, officially, no one did a complete scan of the Bay. At least not that the Public knows of.
Just now ... I got off the phone with witness #321, a Supervisor with the Dept of Sanitation in NYC who was in a boat in Jamaica Bay only a mile or so east of 587. He saw a parachute-like (undeployed) object descend from 587. Mind you ... most people have never seen an evacuation chute as in the attached (I'm only speculating that's what he saw, in some degree of deployment ... but let's assume for a moment). He said to me it was long and white .. he said it looked like a condom. A condom ... now how does a witness mistake pieces of the rudder, tail, engine, left wingtip, for a long white parachute or condom unless he's tripping on some really bad drugs? He's not the only witness to describe parachute or chute or raft-type objects or luggage falling from the sky and then floating in the Bay.
The FBI also received this information from some witnesses and didn't write it up.
Does even the remotest possibility that this was indeed debris from the interior of 587 in any way change the nature of this investigation. That's what inquiring minds want to know.
Victor
They float ideas, hoping one catches on: first they said it might be a flock of birds … then we heard wake turbulence … then it was a composite material … and now pilot error. They’d better come up with something good because that tail just didn’t fall off.
I don't know.....TWA 800 managed to spontaneously combust all by itself!
I said then, and I quote
"When they heard that there were six Muslims aboard, the tail and both engines got off of the plane. The other passengers would have left too, but they were buckled down in their seat belts."
"When they heard that there were six Muslims aboard, the tail and both engines got off of the plane. The other passengers would have left too, but they were buckled down in their seat belts."
I heard about the charred pages from the book "Manual of Islamic Behavior" a few months ago; but none of the passenger names seemed Muslim ... but then, Richard Reid doesn't seem like a Muslim name...
Yeah. Cat Stevens, either.
And your evidence is?
Actually, since the Airbus tail is a composite structure, in which it is impossible to detect abnormalities, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that it "just fell off".
Carbon fiber is some neat stuff. But there are some big problems with it in airplanes. Things like contamination between layers can cause failures, and the problem cannot be found without testing the part by breaking it.
I'll join the conspiracy train with regard to TWA800 with all the witnesses who saw a missle. But this one looks easy. Tail fell off. Plane crashed. oops.
The fact that they've found other Airbus tails that have delamination problems ought to scare you more about a coverup. A coverup about unsafe French airplanes. Like the coverup of the Boeing 737 rudder problem that caused three crashes, where they recently had a quiet replacement of some rudder control parts and didn't connect it with any previous crashes. Sure.
On Fox 5 NY a man named Kenneth Brown said this to Rosanna ? and John ?
John: Ken, you there?
Ken: yes yes I am.
John: Can you tell us what you saw Ken?
Ken: Alright, I was out on the boat about a hundred twentieth a hundred nineteenth st when un we stopped the boat cause we have an engine..yah know the engine was making weird sounds, so we stopped the boat and we were back by the engine and I heard a popping sound...not like a a a I cant even say it was an explosion, it was more like a pop and then like a whishing sound and then part of the wing came off.
John: Where was the plane at that moment?
Ken: Right over the bay. Right over the bay
John: So is it almost right above you?
Ken: Yes, kinda to the north of us, cause we where more to the east channel drive at that time, on that side of Jamaica Bay and um the pieces that came off the wing...flew into the um tail and tore the tail off and as soon as that happened the plane went belly up towards us and towards the east and it just dove straight down, like the uhh the belly of the plane actually turned toward the south and it went straight down into the ground.
John: So you saw some big pieces of this plane come off...
Ken: We was the first ones on the scene and then the police boat came and we helped them pick up parts of the boat..uh..parts a the plane. We actually took up the blue A off of the tail we put that in the boat. Ummm the picture of the....another piece of the whole top of the tail with the flag on it was laying in shallow water. We took up allot of pieces of the boat...the plane we put it on the boat and took them in to the police boat an helped load em onto the police boat but a a the engine
Rosannabreaks in: Well it sounds like you have some crucial information Ken...
His voice rising Ken says: See the engine...everybody keeps saying the engine fell off...if it fell off it fell off on the way down....
John: U Huh
Ken: That plane as soon as its tail came off it just bellied up and went straight down, so yah know people saying yah know the engine came off, but that came off after the fact. Now as far as explosion, something was happening over the bay, something made the wing shatter and took of the tail. and uh the way I seen it , it still looked like it had its engines on as it was going down.
John: Have you spoken to anyone there uh Ken have you talked to any members of the..
Ken: Yeh a yeh police I gave the police a guy in a police boat my name and all that and when I was helping em with ya know the parts of the plane
Woman: Ken you sound very shacking up , I'm sure this has..
Ken: I'm still shacking, its a its just a terrible sight. Ya know its something ya see on a movie Ya know how the plane..ya just just knew it..that it wouldn't, as it was going down I was saying hit the ocean hit the ocean thinking ya know maybe it cleared, its only 4 blocks wide but the plane just turned over and came straight down. It was..its a sight to see..it was ya know stunned me
Woman: Were you able to keep your composure and think clearly at that point?
Ken: Yes, actually actually the things was starting to fly down toward the boat so we backed up a little bit toward the the trestles the A train trestle and then we came back to see if they was any...ah cause at one time I thought I could see a seat but I wasn't even sure, Nothing heavy came down, everything floated down
Woman: Do you think you got everything that was in the water?
Ken: Mostly everything that was floating yah. Cause a the police boat came like the within 5 minutes..3 minutes maybe but that plane was gone in 6 seconds, when I heard the popping sound and seen the flames seen the uh wing hit the back tail an that came off it couldn't a been more than 3 seconds for it was down
John: So your saying the wing came off and hit the tail?
Ken: Parts yes...the whole section of the tail was what we recovered. The A the little flag on the top of the tail section that whole section, like the 30 foot top of that was stuck in the sand...in the water about 5 feet of water but there was other pieces floating around..as a matter of fact I took the blue A and we pulled that part on the boat and brought it over to the police boat. They was asking for our help then allot of boats came by allot of police boats
John: Nick your sitting hearing what Ken is saying that if any any questions for him? Nick Well um it sounds like Ken is your describing is a again that something exploded uh to cause these pieces of the wing to come out. Is that what you sug..
Ken: Exactly something happened to that wing that sent pieces of it back to the tail.
John: was it the left wing or the right wing Ken do ya know?
Ken: ahh see now like my friend..well.. a it bellied up to me and a when it bellied up to the east it a looked like the right wing cause the left wing still looked intact to me. It looked like the right wing had come off..or part of it
John: well that would fit with what the
(over talk..engine..saying..?) Nick: Unnn but again Ken Kinda saying the engine fell off after the fact but still potentially the engine exploding could could cause pieces of the engine to fly I mean what may have happened was a a series of events where pieces if the engine actually flew back and struck the tail or even that pieces of the engine and the wing at the same time so a but a Kens observations of the tail is a very interesting clue
John: Do you live around there Ken?
Ken: Yes, I live in Hamilton beach right off Jamaica Bay and a thats the whole thing..That plane would have went over Rockaway cause it was still like level until the tail came off and then it just bellied up and spun around and came straight down uh otherwise it would..that tail..as soon as it shattered thats when the plane lost everything
Nick: Now Ken did you see actual flames coming out of an engine that was..?
Ken: There was flames on the belly of the plane..I don't know weather it was the engine or ya know, but the plane bellied up towards us as it was going down and flames in the a..in that vicinity of the engines or whatever like underneath the plane
Well Ken we a thank you for your time
Ken: No Problem
32 posted on 07/16/2002 6:31 PM EDT by copycat
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While I'm not an "engineer", I was trained as an aircraft mechanic and through various racing endeavors have worked with composite materials.
The "break" in the photograph was definitly not from a tension force, or from any other force that was not assisted by a horizontal "cut" or fracture prior to it's departing the aircraft. This failure was a clean cut type of seperation, not the ripped and distorted failure that any person with any experience with composites would expect to find.
As to how the cut happened, I have some ideas, and some of them involve sabotage.
What I do know is that the NTSB and the law enforcement agencies are pissing on our legs and telling us it's raining.
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