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To: Korrupt
"I'm a servant of the Secret Fire, weilder of the Flame of Anor."

Two seperate statements. The second, as a weilder, is refering to his Ring I believe. But he is not a servant to the Ring, indeed, he is not a servant to any but Manwe and Eru.

Manwe, the Valar that is in control of Middle-Earth, was well known as the "Sky God" of the Pantheon that the Valar comprised. His symbol were the Great Eagles and his domain the sky and wind.

Eru (the Creator of all), on the other hand, would not have been recognized by many in Middle-Earth, but surely would have been known to the Maiar. Since Gandalf and the Balrog were both Maiar, they would have understood a reference to Eru. The spirit of Eru, called the Secret Fire in the Silmarillion I believe, is what gave life to all living things in Middle-Earth.

It's not hard, therefore, see how a comparison could be made between "The Secret Fire" of Middle-Earth and the Holy Spirit of our world.

24 posted on 12/06/2002 9:45:29 AM PST by Anitius Severinus Boethius
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius
Tolkien drives me crazy with his habit of giving everything four names! It makes some of this stuff hard to follow even if one is trying really hard... Illuvitar=Eru, correct? Both mean the One creator?

One of my favorite lines from Silmarillion is the description given to Gandalf of his ring of power and how it will help them in his mission:

"'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. "

To me, that highlights exactly what Gandalf's real power in Middle Earth was, not in sparkly magic and lightning bolts, but in his ability to inspire greatness in the hearts of others. Gandalf's role is subtle, a mentoring that leads the hero to his own decision. I think Tolkien left it unsaid that Gandalf carried this power because for the hero to have known that there was a greater power at work could lead the reader to think that Gandalf was driving people through trickery, no more noble than Saruman's voice.

And yet Gandalf says "There are other forces at work besides the will of evil, and that is an encouraging thought" Clearly Gandalf is once again saying mysterious things without explaining all of their meanings, unless we dig deeper.


26 posted on 12/06/2002 9:59:09 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius
Now "Ring" of fire I understand.
Just ask Mr. Cash:

Love is a burnin' thing, And it makes a fiery ring
Bound by wild desire -- I fell into a ring of fire.

I fell into a burnin' ring of fire

-- I went down, down, down And the flames went higher,
And it burns, burn, burns, The ring of fire, the ring of fire.

The taste of love is sweet When hearts like ours meet.
I fell for you like a child -- Oh, but the fire ran wild.

I fell into a burnin' ring of fire

-- I went down, down, down And the flames went higher,
And it burns, burn, burns, The ring of fire, the ring of fire.

I fell into a burnin' ring of fire

-- I went down, down, down, And the flames went higher,
And it burns, burn, burns, The ring of fir, the ring of fire.

The ring of fire (and Fade)

30 posted on 12/06/2002 10:44:14 AM PST by BenLurkin
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius; angelo; JenB; HairOfTheDog; Korrupt; Lil'freeper
It's kind of funny that this article got posted today. We just began talking about The Silmarillion today over here. I also wondered about the connection between the secret fire and the Holy Spirit here.

Here is where Tolkien mentions the secret fire the first time in The Silmarillion(Near the end of the fourth paragraph of the "Ainulindale":

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, thought it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

So it seems that the secret fire has something to do with knowledge, which is also one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit.

Wielder of the Flame of Anor is interesting as well. I am not so sure if it refers to the Ring of Fire or not. Anor was another name for Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun), which was changed to Minas Tirith after the Nazgul had taken over Minas Ithil and changed it to Minas Morgul.

34 posted on 12/06/2002 10:54:01 AM PST by ksen
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