Greektown(Casino) ejects winning video poker players

Associated Press ^

[meanspirit77]

Craps...the game most feared by casino owners and casino managers. A table that goes hot can wipe out months of profit in short order. Casinos fear the gambler who will only lose 100.00 at a table and walk, yet press to the limit when he is on to a hot hand.

I think many casinos would do away with craps if they could do it. Many big money gamblers feel that a casio without a craps game is nothing but a gyp joint. Fortunate for the casino most players insist at staying at the table making bad odds bets no matter what. Dice degenerates outnumber savvy shooters millions to one.

[Gabz]

Greektown Casino has ejected about 30 video poker players in recent weeks because they have become unprofitable customers, casino officials said.

Only 30 players? That's nothing.

The State of Delaware has informed 79% of the video poker and video slots players that as of midnight tuesday they are no longer welcome. 79% of the money generated for the state of Delaware by the video gaming players is generated in the smoking sections of the 3 "casinos" in Delaware. As of midnight tomorrow night - smoking sections are no longer permitted.

[kms61]

Ever see the movie "Rounders," with Edward Norton and Matt Damon? Great flick about professional poker players.

[pbear8]

If you are gambling for entertainment

Purely for entertainment. I've only been to Vegas three times in my adult life, but I've come out ahead each time. I have a very strict budget and never blow it. Have just been lucky.

[amtote]

Obviously, the gambling industry (minus paramutual betting) is a total sham...along with the gaming commissions that supposedly keep them in line.

What a joke! The bottom line is this: the casinos will bar (boot) whomever they feel wins too much (they're "not profitable"). GEEEZZZZZ...talk about FREAKING DOUBLESPEAK!

I've often heard casino "friendly" persons say that it's ok to bar "card counters" in blackjack because it is cheating. Yet whenever I have had the chance to confront one of these people, they just can't seem to explain how anything you do in your head (i.e. "BRAIN" or "THINKING") can be cheating. Yet, it seems that some people believe these jerks....mainly because they think that "THINKING" is cheating. No wonder the vast majority of people are losers at the tables.

Cheating can only be defined as some physical action taken to change to legitimate outcome of a game. Now, I've heard some guys say.."well, there are card counters, but our dealers count cards too! (so as to counteract the card counters). Is the dealer cheating? Yes! Why? Because the dealer CAN physically change the game....they can shuffle the deck at any time! So if the deck gets "rich" in 10's (good for player), a counting dealer can just shuffle the deck. If it's "poor", leave it be and suck the money from the players.

I don't personally believe card counting is effective (IMHO), but that has been the "reason" casinos have been using for a long time to bar winning players from the BlackJack tables.

So now, it's not just the "card counters" but anyone who is "not profitable" (i.e. wins). Should be obvious that the gambling industry is feels emboldened enough to adopt sawdust mill tactics. Who is going to put these puppies in line?

[dinodino]

Don't worry about the devices cheating you. The code is certified with respect to randomness and hold percentages. The house ALWAYS has the edge, and doesn't need to cheat. Besides, who'd go to a cheating casino once the word got out?

[Moosilauke]

I don't personally believe card counting is effective ...

It is effective...that't why the the casinos all employ the Griffin agency to keep track of the effective card counters so they can bar them. Only in Las Vegas is "paying attention" and "being smart" a crime.

[general_re]

Never seen it - thanks for the tip.

[general_re]

The house ALWAYS has the edge, and doesn't need to cheat. Besides, who'd go to a cheating casino once the word got out?

While you're most likely right, it's just not transparent enough for my tastes. I've done enough programming in my life to know very well that I could build a poker-playing game that was tipped ever so slightly in favor of the house, and do it in such a way as to make it very unlikely that the player would notice. You don't have to cheat all the time to slide in under the radar - just cheat once in a while, enough to give the house edge a boost of a point or two.

Besides, those things are just waaayyyy too hyperkinetic for me. It just moves a little faster than I'm comfortable with, which is precisely the idea behind making them that fast - keep people moving, so they don't have time to think, and they'll keep feeding the machine until their bladders burst. It's an interesting study in human psychology, watching the video poker players ;)

[secretagent]

Gripping little article.

[amtote]

It is possible to make a device that does indeed come up with a random output; it would be based on a noise generator (white noise). The initial "number" would be determined when the play puts the game "in play". That would be no less random than say spinning the money wheel or the roulette wheel (though I'm sure there are some who would debate the fact that roulette is random!) Now whether the machines do this or not is another story.

[MissBaby]

They figured out the system and were holding the paying machines. No other players were getting to them. The casino was barring professional players. Happens all the time.

[DManA]

What if you start off behind? The trick is walking away while you're ahead,

[amtote]

Well casinos will use as much info as they can get. So if you're tagged a "counter" they will keep an eye on you and give you the heat if they feel you're winning too much. That doesn't necessarily prove a counting method is actually effective. It just means the casino is typically conservative when it comes to risks....they like the odds stacked in their favor. I do not think that an individual counting is going to get a significant advantage (provide they are even accurate) over a pure strategy player. I think what the casino is REALLY concerned about is a GROUP of counters forming a team at a table.

On another subject, I've always wondered..doesn't the privacy act or some other law give you the right to view your record when they are contained in database? Has anyone challenge Griffin to get the book?

[general_re]

What if you start off behind?

They break your legs. ;)

Seriously, the best way to do a casino trip is to set yourself a firm budget and stick to it, whatever it is. Set aside the money for gaming as just another vacation expense, just like postcards and film, plan on losing it all, and when it's all gone, you walk away. That way, you're not spending your kids' college fund in the heat of the moment, and you're not surprised or upset when they take your money, since you planned it that way in the first place.

And if Dame Fortune smiles upon you, and you find yourself ahead of the game, how far ahead you should be before you quit is your call.... ;)

[Paulus Invictus]

Las Vegas' and all other casinos are not there for winners. They exist and prosper only because of the eternal losers that are convinced they can win. Losers are all ignorant dupes!

My nephew is a an accountant with a knack for card counting. He wins often enough at 21 to be bodily removed almost every time by the casinos that hate winners who approach the 51% win mark. Last time he lost a lot and they were very pleased with him. I think he is slightly ahead in winnings vs. losses, but he is still behind when he calculates the cost of his trips to Vegas. Is that entertainment? No, but it sure keeps the lights burning bright in Vegas casinos.

[fnord]

Interesting on-line gambling software flaw:
http://www.cigital.com/news/gambling.html

I'm sure this flaw has been fixed, but if someone were to figure out the casino RNG, video poker could be taken. There is no such thing as a random number ...

[amtote]

Yes, a purely random number can be generated.

Refer to: http://www.intel.com/design/security/rng/rngbrf.htm

The problem (in older Intel) sets has typically been the generator had to be seeded from a programmic and/or known value. By definition that makes the number predictable from the standpoint that if you can know what the seed value is you can know the resulting number. However, a "noise" source is truely random and not predictable. This is built into the newer Intel chipsets (i.e. "thermal noise"). Of course who said anyone had to use an intel chip to make a video poker game? The random noise technolgy is hardly new in encryption schemes but I enjoy freedom so I'll stop there....