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To: Destro; MarMema
<Who twists what again? Theological Controversy over Predestination ~~ Johannis Scotus Erigena argues in De divina praedestinatione that God, being perfectly good, wants all humans to be saved, and does not predestine souls to damnation. God's being is His willing and ‘no necessity binds the will of God’. On the contrary, humans damn themselves through their own free choices: ‘Sin, death, unhappiness are not from God’. Since God is outside time, He cannot be said to fore-know or to pre-destine, terms that involve temporal predicates. Furthermore, if God's being is His wisdom, God can be said to have but a single knowledge and hence a ‘double’ predestination cannot be ascribed to Him. Human nature, on the other hand, was created rational, and rationality requires freedom. Human nature is therefore essentially free: ‘For God did not create in man a captive will but a free one, and that freedom remained after sin’.

Who twists what?

With respect, Destro -- your fine Philosophy Editor hasn't given us nearly enough to go on to even determine that. Most of the above quotation is what he says Erigina says. Surely we can't use that as a standard, when I've at least tried to occupy the majority of my Celtic quotations with... well, actual Celtic quotations. The above Philosophy paragraph includes only three actual snippets of Erigina -- none of which can even be shown to conclusively divide him from Gottschalk (his own debate opponent!), let alone John Calvin (whose views were far better developed than Gottschalk's -- no mere boast; Erigina thought of Gottschalk's writings as "ravings" and he was somewhat correct). To wit:

Regrettably, it seems that our Philosophy Editor friend has arbitrarily torn three snippets at random from Erigina’s library, merely to cast his own gloss upon them – for there is nothing in these three brief, vague scraps which would allow us even to conclusively divide Erigina from his own debate opponent Gottschalk, let alone from the better-refined work of John Calvin.

And at any rate, even should we suppose that Erigina were to fall on the “soft” side of Celtic Predestination (and even Calvinists have a “softer predestinarian” school in the Amyrauldians), it cannot be forgotten that there are a number of other Celtic Fathers who have spoken on Predestination also – and more clearly than this Philosophy Editor has allowed Erigina to speak for himself.

That being kept in mind, then, let’s move on to the Eucharist.


In response to this you say:

One of the most unfortunate developments took place when men began to debate the reality of Christ's Body and Blood in the eucharist. While some said that the eucharistic gifts of bread and wine were the real Body and Blood of Christ, others said that the gifts were not real, but merely the symbolic or mystical presence of the Body and Blood. The tragedy in both of these approaches is that what is real came to be opposed to what is symbolic or mystical.

Well, if the “tragedy in both of these approaches is that what is real came to be opposed to what is symbolic or mystical”, it is a “tragedy” in which Erigina himself participated. For he said in his own words:

But if we shall suppose, that by “only the commemoration” Erigina actually meant “the symbolic or mystical presence of the Body and Blood”, then you have just made of Erigina every bit the Presbyterian which I have claimed him to be!!

For to the Calvinist Presbyterian, the importance of the matter is the denial of the carnal doctrine of gross transubstantiation – which to us, denies the particular Humanity of the unique Body of Flesh prepared from Him of Mary, which we believe is now always locally present in whole at the right hand of the Father in Heaven, without ever any fleshly dispersion whatsoever into nuggets of bread upon earthly altars.

Thus we say with our Scottish forebear, the Celtic Father Erigina, "The Sacraments of the Altar are not the real Body and Blood of Christ, but only the commemoration of his Body and Blood."; but our Presbyterian “Commemoration” is no mere celebration of the “Real Absence” of Zwinglian theology, but a celebration of the "Spiritual Presence" Doctrine declared by John Calvin, as set forth in the Institutes of the Christian Religion:

And if THIS is the Righteous and Mystical and Spiritually-communicative and Symbolic Celebration of which Erigina speaks, when he says ”The Sacraments of the Altar are not the real Body and Blood of Christ, but only the commemoration of his Body and Blood” – then this is the very same Supper which is Celebrated among the Calvinists….

…and Geneva shakes hand with Iona across the gulf of a thousand years.

Best, OP

93 posted on 03/09/2004 2:48:54 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
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To: Destro; MarMema
Incidentally, to my #93, I'll append one more observation of John Calvin's -- ironically, a criticism of Martin Luther's "consubstantiation", but it equally well expresses our Presbyterian dismay with the Roman doctrine of "transubstantiation":

Rightly or wrongly, that pretty well expresses our disagreement.

94 posted on 03/09/2004 3:50:38 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; MarMema; Destro; FormerLib
Just for the record, the Eastern Orthodox Church does share the Roman Catholic dogma (established in the 16th century) of transsubstantiation. The term used by the Greeks is means change as in "alteration," but is not the equivalent of transubstantiation.

As always, the EOC treats things we cannot fully understand as inspired knowledge that remain a mystery and Eucharist is certainly one of those mysteries.

Not much has been written about it, but even St. Paul hints that it might be the real thing. After Paul, and quite some time after the Gospels were written, Irenaeus was hinting at the nature of "change" in the Eucharist as earl at 106 AD

This was echoed two centuries later by Ambrose of Milan in his Sacraments, who lived and died in 4th century.

But the whole idea of eating human flesh and drnking wine was abhorrant to the Jews as it is to us. Yet the Christian world sees the whole issue differentlyw when it comes to Eucharist.

The custom is certainly not in the Jewish tradition, but the Gospels leave no doubt that (1) we are to celbrate the Supper in memory of Him and that the bread "is" His body and the wine "is" His blood. Whether that constitutes cannibalism, as some have accused Christians of, or not is altogether unclear, but I would like to err on the divine side and say that the spirit of His gifts is present (and I am blaspheming here), until I am shown any different.

96 posted on 03/09/2004 7:21:54 AM PST by kosta50
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Sir, what you are qouting is an English tranlation-tranlated to fit an agenda. What did he say in the original Latin/Greek?
125 posted on 03/10/2004 10:04:58 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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