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Well, we don't have to agree. I do like to try to understand other viewpoints, as it helps me to work out my own.

It's a shame that this forum makes a simple civil discourse notable!

I guess I'd just like to leave with an understanding of your angle.

If I understand you correctly, the anachronistic concepts of freedom from English oppression, espoused by Franklin and Henry etal, can not be realistically applied in the modern era and the war on terrorism, primarily because the level of potential destruction has escalated to the point that we can't afford to allow a battle to begin, much less challenge the terrorists to all out war.

And to prevent that battle, we must empower the government to use the collective wealth and resources of the people to seek and destroy these terrorists before they commit a crime, at the risk of diluting the classical freedoms established by the old fellers themselves.

Do I have you right? It may seem obvious to me, and you may indeed be correct. Though I don't want that to be the case, if it is true, then my ilk will be left behind for better or for worse like the Loyalists were in the First American Revolution.

If so, I feel like Thomas Paine wrote precursors to that Revolution, and I think Orwell and bin Laden are writing the precursors for the next.