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To: tpaine
No such thing, constitutionally, as a 'legal ban'. Local/state gov's can regulate, but not prohibit possession of property. 'Covert' efforts prove this point.

I mentioned four things: prostitution, pornography, drugs and abortion. You must have drugs on the brain. Clearly most states do ban prostitution. And until recently, many jurisdictions had bans on abortion and pornography. Now they have to make use with zoning and other non-overt means of control. I don't know if you are right about bans on drugs, but clearly states and localities can ban activities or behavior regarded as destructive.

Things are 'out of hand' because of the 'war'. Regulate drugs as we regulate booze, and the main problems of black market lawlessness dissappear, as the end of alcohol prohibition once taught us.

If you look at my post, I suggested that this was a possibility. But one also has to take into account the problems of societies with widespread legal drug use. If you don't, you're only looking at half the picture.

Again, no one is advocating that local gov's lose their power to regulate criminal conduct.

No one? There are some libertarians, anarchists and anarchocapitalists who suggest just that. There was much agitation to legalize "victimless crimes." You may not agree with that, but any full portrayal of libertarianism can't ignore those who think that way.

Your point is a generalization, true of any political idea based on individual liberty. -- Thus: 'Republicanism rests on an idea of the rational and responsible individual, but one can't assume that all individuals fit this pattern or that republican policies would increase the number of such citizens.'

True, but the gap is much greater with libertarianism or anarchism than with other ideologies. No other ideologies rely so much on the existence of rational and responsible individuals. But libertarians don't put more effort -- may even put less effort -- into inculcating reason and morality in society.

It may be that the "war on drugs" has been a failure, and that laws will be loosened to allow some access to drugs. But this will come about in a very controlled atmosphere, that takes all sides of the question into account. It won't -- and shouldn't -- be done in the way the radical libertarians want.

81 posted on 11/18/2002 1:31:03 PM PST by x
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To: x
Some local governments try to keep these things under control, either outright through legal bans, or covertly through zoning regulations.

No such thing, constitutionally, as a 'legal ban'. Local/state gov's can regulate, but not prohibit possession of property. 'Covert' efforts prove this point.

I mentioned four things: prostitution, pornography, drugs and abortion. You must have drugs on the brain.

You do, not me. -- I mentioned unconstitutional prohibitions on property, any property.

Clearly most states do ban prostitution. And until recently, many jurisdictions had bans on abortion and pornography.

They can 'ban' criminal acts using due process. Prohibitions on 'sin' or on property are not due process, thus are unconstitutional.

Now they have to make use with zoning and other non-overt means of control. I don't know if you are right about bans on drugs, but clearly states and localities can ban activities or behavior regarded as destructive.

That is a common misconception about unconstitutional 'bans'. Criminal conduct can be banned. "Activities or behavior regarded as destructive" can be 'regulated', under constitutional guidelines.

Things are 'out of hand' because of the 'war'. Regulate drugs as we regulate booze, and the main problems of black market lawlessness dissappear, as the end of alcohol prohibition once taught us.

If you look at my post, I suggested that this was a possibility. But one also has to take into account the problems of societies with widespread legal drug use. If you don't, you're only looking at half the picture.

We have ALL been looking at ALL the 'picture' for five years now at FR.

Again, no one is advocating that local gov's lose their power to regulate criminal conduct.

No one? There are some libertarians, anarchists and anarchocapitalists who suggest just that. There was much agitation to legalize "victimless crimes." You may not agree with that, but any full portrayal of libertarianism can't ignore those who think that way

Yet again:
"You may not agree with that, but any full portrayal of republicanism can't ignore those who think that way" --- either.

Your point is a generalization, true of any political idea based on individual liberty. -- Thus:
'Republicanism rests on an idea of the rational and responsible individual, but one can't assume that all individuals fit this pattern or that republican policies would increase the number of such citizens.'

True, but the gap is much greater with libertarianism or anarchism than with other ideologies. No other ideologies rely so much on the existence of rational and responsible individuals.

Sheer, unsupported supposition on your part. Our republic was formed on the basis of the rationality of the individual. Many founders remarked upon that fact, as you well know.

But libertarians don't put more effort -- may even put less effort -- into inculcating reason and morality in society.

Again. --- Sheer, unsupported supposition on your part. Getting silly in fact. Repetition of biased thought is still bias.

It may be that the "war on drugs" has been a failure, and that laws will be loosened to allow some access to drugs. But this will come about in a very controlled atmosphere, that takes all sides of the question into account. It won't -- and shouldn't -- be done in the way the radical libertarians want.

Whatever. -- As long as the radical Rino WOD madness is ended.

91 posted on 11/18/2002 3:28:08 PM PST by tpaine
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