Libertarians are big time spoilers in Gov races

ma-firearms@world.std.com ^ | 11/6/02 | Ioffe

[pabianice]

* means NRA endorsment. Grade is the NRA grade.

Alabama:

*(D) Siegelman 674,052 A+

(R) Riley 670,913 A

(L) Sophocleus 23,242

Oregon:

(D) Kulongoski 493,385 C+

(R) Mannix 490,745 A

(L) Cox 47,444

Wisconsin:

(D) Doyle 800,958 F

*(R) McCallum 732,781 A

(L) Thompson 185,085

Wyoming:

(D) Freudenthal 89,407 A-

*(R) Bebout 85,556 A+

(L) Dawson 3,800

Not to mention that Thune will probably lose South Dakota Senate seat by a smaller margin that the Libertarian in that race got...

(D) Johnson 167,481 C+

*(R) Thune 166,954 A

(L) Evans 3,071

So basically Libertarians brought 2 anti-gun governors, and possibly kept Daschle's clone in power. My question is why Libertarians run against good pro-gun candidates? I realize that there are other issues besides guns. Meanwhile people of Wisconsin have to wait another 4 years for gun licenses...

[Monitor]

Oh, you mean the Republican-controlled state senate and assembly are going to pass all that?

Welfare Reform: Wisconsin Works (W-2) Program

School Choice: MILWAUKEE PARENTAL CHOICE PROGRAM

Concealed carry legislation: PERSONAL PROTECTION ACT

Wisconsin Republicans PASSED welfare reform, PASSED school choice, and damn near passed concealed carry. So, to answer your stupid and uninformed question, yes.

Any more questions, door knob?

[Monitor]

Okay, here's the answer, and you are not going to like it.

The GOP and MR. Tommy Thompson, after 16 years left the State of WI in a terrible mess. Higher taxes, bigger governmnet, more fees, and a lot less results.I won't evn get into a 3 BILLIONDollar deficit.

Tommy Thompson wasn't on the ballot, idiot. Scott McCallum was. So, I'll ask my question ONE MORE TIME.

(Jesus, you Libertarians are morons. Is it the drugs?)

I'm still waiting for the Libertarians here to tell me what great extra-constitutional sin McCallum committed to justify getting a Democrat elected Governor. I've answered your questions, now answer mine.

[cruiserman]

The reps and dems here all go on and on about funding public education instead of eliminating public funding and pushing for school choice. Another difference between reps and libs.

[anniegetyourgun]

Agreed, but they aren't worth convincing because they cannot and will not be convinced. It is a seemingly bitter, angry, and unconsolable people. They seem to live to critcize, and then when they are able to make a difference, they opt out.

[csvset]

Dole (R), won in North Carolina, she's anti-gun or has she changed her spots?

[reg45]

On the other hand. If all the people who had voted for the Republican candidate had voted for the Libertarian candidate some of these states would now have a Libertarian governor.

8-)

[csvset]

The fact that a anti-gun nut like Dole in in the Senate is scary. Far worse than a Democratic Gov.

[Letitring]

I wish that weren't true, but I read a post one night, on this forum where one of them said just that. Seems he thought the election of Hillary would promote a revolution, then after that the Country would return to it's original State, whatever he thinks that was (he didn't say that part), and the Libertarians would be in control. I recall someone else thought that way once upon a time, his name is Charles Manson. Different people were fighting in his revolution, but it would leave him in charge, so he thought. I don't know, what else to do but give up. When some of them were talking about "earning back their vote, finding out what they wanted, etc.," I was gullible enough to ask and try to find out. Wellllllll, what I discovered has led me to a few conclusions. I do feel I have a better understanding about what they are all about and are after. Fine with me, as I intend to leave them alone. I am going to give more money to the Republican Party than I ever have before, fund more out- of- State Canidates, and support every Green Party canidate I become aware of. Anyway, that's what I've come up with to turn my dismay into something positive.

[AdamSelene235]

You didn't help do that. In fact, you screwed up big time and let the socialists win in those states. There is no excuse for such idiocy!

Look, *you* created us. The freedom movement would be utterly superfluous in a country where individual dignity and liberty were secure. Had the pubbies spoke and acted effectively against excessive taxation, regulatory enslavement, the erosion of the right to bear arms, etc. we wouldn't be here today.

Embarrasingly, I'm thrilled by the Republican victory. Time to put ut or shut up. Lets see some real tax reform for starters.

[Paulus Invictus]

Did you miss getting your tax rebate check? When did the Pubs vote against bearing arms? Did you notice that Bush eliminated Kyoto, a severe regulatory device that thankfully did not become law? Did you notice that he also refused to have our troops subject to an International war crimes court (more regulations from outside)? We still have liberty and the vote.

Your vote was wasted and in some states caused Pubs to lose. How can that be a plus? Sorry your were embarrassed by the wins, but you deserve to be embarrassed by our losses.

[Monitor]

I'm still waiting for the Libertarians here to tell me what great extra-constitutional sin McCallum committed to justify getting a Democrat elected Governor. I've answered your questions, now answer mine.

And I'm STILL waiting.

[porte des morts]

LOL. You'll probably wait a long time too. You call peole moron, idiot and accuse people of being drug users, but you want these same people to explain something that you can not understand.

Do a little research, the answer is out there. Check the vote totals;compare the numbers in past elections to this past one. The people that did not show up were Republican voters. Ed Thompson did not lose the election for you, Jim Doyle did not lose the election for you, the state GOP and the GOP candidate blew it.

You sem to feel that by running with an R after your name, you get elected....well guess what, you still need people to pull the lever by your name. The GOP voters of the past did not show up at the polls.Blame the libertarians all you want but the truth is very different.

[AdamSelene235]

Did you miss getting your tax rebate check?

Pshaaw.Spit in the ocean. Its going to be a tax hike when you take into account the AMT. Fiscal burden of government is still twice that of Communist China.

When did the Pubs vote against bearing arms?

All the time. "Assault" weapons ban. The crime bill of 68. NFA 34. Literally tens of thousands of state and local regs.

Did you notice that Bush eliminated Kyoto, a severe regulatory device that thankfully did not become law? Did you notice that he also refused to have our troops subject to an International war crimes court (more regulations from outside)? We still have liberty and the vote.

I was impressed by these things. Lousy public speaker but so far most of the policy calls have been on target. He needs to drop the Keynesian BS, tho. We also need to find something to replace the Bretton Woods system.

Your vote was wasted and in some states caused Pubs to lose. How can that be a plus? Sorry your were embarrassed by the wins, but you deserve to be embarrassed by our losses.

Look, I only voted in one state and I didn't cost a single Republican his or her position.

I'm embarrased that I actually believe the Republicans will live up to their rhetoric. I'm usually not so hopelessly naive.

[malakhi]

Wisconsin Republicans PASSED welfare reform, PASSED school choice, and damn near passed concealed carry. So, to answer your stupid and uninformed question, yes. Any more questions, door knob?

Uh, doorknob, learn to read. You said that the election of Doyle would mean the end of these programs. My comment was that their recission would require the action of the Republican-controlled legislature. Get it now?

[Monitor]

Do a little research, the answer is out there. Check the vote totals;compare the numbers in past elections to this past one. The people that did not show up were Republican voters. Ed Thompson did not lose the election for you, Jim Doyle did not lose the election for you, the state GOP and the GOP candidate blew it.

In the 2000 fall election, with 2,958,607 total votes cast, 6640 Wisconsinites voted for Harry Browne, the Libertarian Presidential Candidate, representing only 0.26% of the total vote.

In the 2002 fall election, only two years later, with 1,771,013 total votes cast, 183,352 Wisconsinites voted for Ed Thompson, the Libertarian Gubernatorial Candidate, representing a whopping 11% of the total vote.

Where did all these Libertarian voters (from 6640 in 2000 to 183,352 in 2002 - two short years) come from?

You seem to believe that these Libertarian voters for Ed Thompson didn't come from the ranks of otherwise Republican-voting Wisconsinites, siphoning off valuable votes that would have put McCallum over the top, and I believe that they did. Well, where were all these Libertarian voters in 2000?

I won't dispute that McCallum wasn't a politically astute candidate. But then, neither was Ed Thompson, who's big issue was off-reservation non-Indian gambling machines, which should come as no surprise as he was busted for just such an offense.

I've also witnessed an interesting turn of admittedly anectdotal events. Over the last year, having attended many of the gun shows in SE WI, I saw many exhibiters with "Ed Thompson for Governor" bumper stickers afixed to their display cases - bumper stickers which were noticeably absent at the most recent post-election gun show. Me thinks these otherwise likely Republican voters have recognized, too late unfortunately, the tactical mistake they made, and aren't too comfortable advertizing that fact, even if you haven't come to grips with it yet.

[Monitor]

Uh, doorknob, learn to read. You said that the election of Doyle would mean the end of these programs. My comment was that their recission would require the action of the Republican-controlled legislature. Get it now?

Line-item veto, allowing the (now liberal Democrat) Governor Doyle to completely strip funding for each of these programs out of every budget submitted to him.

There is no school choice without the dollars to fund it. There's no deer hunting without dollars to fund the DNR's printing of deer tags. Etc.

Get it now?

[Paulus Invictus]

I meant all Libertarian voters in any state, and I insist they/you cost us some good candidates who were to the right of the RATS.

As for Bush being a "lousy speaker" I disagree with you again. Bush did very well last year in his "we will get them" speech to Congress and exceedingly well when he addressed the UN. Can you really dispute that? If so, your standards are very high, possibly too high. I take his speeches and other utterances as highly superior to the lying/exaggerating/its-all-about-me trash talk that Klintoon spewed. I soon refused to listen to that immoral idiot and still find his speeches repugnant. I also enjoy President Bush's "down home" way of talking. It is not offensive to me at all or do I mind his occasional mispronounced words. We all do that, even you Libertarians.

[porte des morts]

You are compareing the Presidential election to a Governors race,apples to oranges, if the numbers are to mean anything.

In the last Governors race, the Rep. candidate got over 1 million votes. The libertarian got a whopping 11,000 votes.

Shift to this past election. . Libertarian pickes up 180 thousand votes. McCallum has 400,000 votes go away.

If every vote for a Libertarian came from the republican voters as you claim, explain were the other 220,000 prior republican voters went?

Again, the state GOP was of the same mind set as you are, if we run a R we will win. Well guess what, 220,000 of your freinds felt it was not needed to show up.

Why aren't the gun shows covered in McCallum stickers and signs, if he is the big gun advocate you claim. Maybe he takes his base for granted? Do not blame the people that were out there voteing.Look at the goofs that did not show up.

[malakhi]

Get it now?

Thank you for addressing my real point instead of some figment of your imagination.

Line-item veto, allowing the (now liberal Democrat) Governor Doyle to completely strip funding for each of these programs out of every budget submitted to him. There is no school choice without the dollars to fund it. There's no deer hunting without dollars to fund the DNR's printing of deer tags. Etc.

This is a valid concern. However, I don't think Doyle is likely to push his luck on these issues. Things like school choice and hunting are very popular in this state. If something like this were to happen, the best thing for the Republicans to do would be to bring the vetoed items up individually for a vote to override. This would force the Democrats in the legislature to either side with Doyle (thus painting a big target on their backs) or vote with the Republicans to override. Either way the Democrats come out as losers.

[AdamSelene235]

I meant all Libertarian voters in any state, and I insist they/you cost us some good candidates who were to the right of the RATS.

Well, address your complaint to them not me.

As for Bush being a "lousy speaker" I disagree with you again. Bush did very well last year in his "we will get them" speech to Congress and exceedingly well when he addressed the UN.

I caught the UN speech and was impressed. Very polished compared to the early days. Alan Keyes would have been a better choice.