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To: Principled
HR2525 makes no reference whatsoever to specific items that are tax free

HR2525 doesn't seem (to me at least) the proper way to implement a NRST.

"prebate"... a check in the amount of taxes to be paid on necessites in a given month based on family size

This particular aspect of some of the national retail tax schemes seems very disturbing to me. The idea of the United States government sending a monthly check to every household in the US is a mechanism of socialism at its worst; it is communist-style income redistribution just waiting for a leftist Democratic administration to happen (i.e., just up the "prebate" amount and increase the tax rate accordingly to pay for it, to whatever level of income redistribution that is desired).

I would much prefer simply to not tax entire categories of products (food, clothing, shelter). The elimination of the associated bureaucracy alone would probably make up for any potential loss in revenue. And since many states already exempt food, etc. from sales tax, it isn't as if there is any complication in doing so at a national level as well.

Of course, I would prefer a national retail sales tax to any other tax scheme (short the "prebate" mechanism, which by itself makes the system completely unworkable). One benefit of such a sales tax scheme is that the level of taxation isn't just apparent to the tax payers, but its effects are immediately demonstratable to the government as well. When taxes through such a mechanism are raised to confiscatory levels, the result is a reduction in consumption (and a direct reduction in tax receipts) that is rapidly apparent to government. In other words government can be immediately shown the folly (damage to the economy, and loss in revenue that it receives) of excessive tax rates, something that is somewhat missing from our current (hidden) tax system.
867 posted on 11/10/2002 3:09:14 PM PST by Technogeeb
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To: Technogeeb

This particular aspect of some of the national retail tax schemes seems very disturbing to me. The idea of the United States government sending a monthly check to every household in the US is a mechanism of socialism at its worst;

The key is whether or not you want an Retail tax or one of the versions of income tax.

Yes, it would be appropriate to remove all exception to the tax, including supposed necessity. There, by rights should be no exception what so ever.

Unfortunately that is not the politically viable choice before us at this to, the future perhaps but not at this time.

The choice is between graduated Income taxes and VATs, the direction the socialist want to take in order to separate the perception of who bears the tax burden from those who partake in government largess.

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
-George Bernard Shaw

And the NRST in which makes the burden equally visible to all citizens.

The NRST recognises on basic principle, and that is the individual must choose and the individual must exercise responsibility commensurate with his liberty.

Life and that which is necessary to life should not be taxed by government, nor should government make the choice of that which is necessary to the individual necessity anymore than is absolutely necessary to fiscal responsibility.

The Family Consumption Allowence(FCA) is a recognition not taxing that which is most precious and the ultimate right of the individual without which all other rights are meaningless. That is life itself.

The FCA is the alternative to government choosing what goods and what service are essential for the individual. A thing that only an individual in the totality of his experience can know.

You may not like the answer I have given or may not feel it pure enough in motive. But the simple fact is this nation will tax, the key is how it should tax and how do we limit its reach in regards to that which should not be taxed.

I see the FCA as the least objectionable in terms of personal freedom to choose for one's self, of other schemes put forth to assure necessity (that minimum necessary to the maintenacne of life) is not taxed and taxation of consumption(an indirect tax) become taxation of property(the most onerous and intrusive of the direct taxes.)

It's your choice my friend.

870 posted on 11/10/2002 3:59:32 PM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: Technogeeb

The idea of the United States government sending a monthly check to every household in the US is a mechanism of socialism at its worst; it is communist-style income redistribution

Redistribution is taking it from one and giving to another. That doesn't happen with the prebate. It is provided to an individual who then spends it back to gov't. No redistribution is taking place.

The reason for the prebate check to all families is to eliminate the need to identify specific items for exclusion and to eliminate the need to track income, as that would open the door to manipulation and politics... exactly what we want to avoid.

If somebody were to try to increase the tax rate, the rate would go up equally on EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WHO BUYS ANYTHING- every kid, every adult, and most importantly, every single voter.

In today's system, pols can raise taxes continually by playing cat and mouse with who is paying what- giving favors to contributors, playing class warfare, pretending business pays tax.... that all goes away under the nrst's preabte system, which is NOT, btw, redistribution.

And since many states already exempt food, etc. from sales tax, it isn't as if there is any complication in doing so at a national level as well.

Did you know Doritos is exempt but Fritos aren't? Did you know bologna is exempt but hot dogs aren't?

This type of political control over what food "is" ... is so infantile. Simply exempt all necessities as defined by the purchaser.

When taxes through such a mechanism are raised to confiscatory levels, the result is a reduction in consumption (and a direct reduction in tax receipts) that is rapidly apparent to government. In other words government can be immediately shown the folly (damage to the economy, and loss in revenue that it receives) of excessive tax rates, something that is somewhat missing from our current (hidden) tax system

Indeed. This is the assertion made by Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers.

Remember the prebate is not REdistributing anything. It's a wash by individual. Its function legislatively (politically) is to eliminate the tax on necessity. In reality, it helps remind EVERYONE, even the poor, that government has a price.

Even if you're at the poverty level, you'll have to reach in your pocket and cough up the green for your taxes... every time you buy. Of course, the prebate would prevent you from having any net tax liability on necessities, but having to pull green from the pocket is a nice effect IMO.

872 posted on 11/10/2002 4:26:06 PM PST by Principled
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