Take A Stand: Vote against H1B, Boycott H1B Companies

Self | November 2, 2002 | FormerLurker

[FormerLurker]

Thanks for that huge waste of bandwidth.

If you didn't want to waste bandwidth, you shouldn't have launched senseless personal attacks and false allegations. You obviously wouldn't cease your personal attacks unless I rehashed the entire sequence of posts leading up to your so-called "PROOF" of a lie that was never uttered. You had posted snipets of posts and claimed that those snippits PROVED THAT I WAS A LIAR. If you hadn't embarked on this voyage, you wouldn't have had to deal with the rocky seas. Get over the fact that you were wrong and drop it..

I like the FAQ part, it proves I'm right, there are problems with the database, and they're hoping to fix them, but they don't consider the problems terminal. They can admit it, why can't you?

I HAD already POSTED the damn database error part of the FAQ. The errors in the database DO NOT include duplicate records. In case you're going to try to weasel your way around this and say that I'm LYING, I'll provide that post again just to prove that you are simply being flippant and that your position is intellectually bankrupt.

Here's post #208

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From LCA Database FAQs

Are Database Errors Corrected?

The data in the database is an exact replication of the DOL data that was obtained using the Freedom of Information Act. This data is not modified or corrected for errors because a lot can be learned from the errors the data contains. It is not the mission of ZaZona.com to correct errors in our government databases.

So I was wrong, the data is from the Department of Labor instead of INS. HOWEVER, the data IS an exact duplicate of that provided by the DOL. SO, if there's a problem with the data, it is the DOL that either collected the data incorrectly or the data is in fact valid.

208 posted on 11/05/2002 10:09 AM PST by FormerLurker

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So there you go, I supplied you with the link to the FAQ in post 208 so that you could read it. Have you ever heard of the expression, RTFFAQ? If you HAD read the FAQ you would have seen the following info...

What Types of Errors Exist in the Database?

There are many errors contained in this database. Most of them occur when employers enter something incorrectly or forget to fill out a field. Another major source of errors are caused when the Dept. of Labor scans the LCAs into digital format.

A major source of errors occurs when employers categorize the jobs. When employers fill out the Labor Condition Application they are required to categorize the job by using a three digit code defined in the Dictionary of Occupational Codes (DOT). These codes range from 000 to 999. The codes appear on the database results page as OCC followed by a three digit code. 

It is the employer's responsibility to assign the DOT codes and job titles. These are not reviewed by the Department of Labor (DOL) for errors or inconsistencies. Gross errors can occur because the employer assigns wrong codes and/or vague job titles. Here are some of the major reasons those errors could occur:

• Human resource people or clerical staff are not properly trained to assign codes. They might not understand the job title enough to categorize it.

• The employer want to be intentionally vague so that they have more flexibility in hiring a variety of different H-1Bs

• Intentional errors could be entered to change how prevailing salaries are calculated. If, for instance, a software engineer is considered for a position, he could be classified as a Programmer/Analyst since they typically are on a lower pay scale.

• Negligence or mistakes can never be ruled out as a source of error.

• The DOT system is outdated and doesn't define categories correctly in many cases

• Errors can happen at the DOL when LCAs are scanned into the digital format. They use an OCR that can misinterpret data items.

There are many types of errors observed in the database including:

• Missing fields

• shifted fields

• misspelled words

• numbers that are too large or too small

• numbers that have an extra digit

• numbers that are missing digits

• unknown or vague job classifications

• incorrect job codes

• Year 2000 date errors

Here is an example of some of the types of errors encountered in the database. Table A is an example of the raw data entries as received by the DOL. The job code, or DOT, column was all "030" but that isn't the correct code for the job titles given. Table B shows how the data would appear if the errors in the job code were corrected.

Table A
Raw Data From the DOL

Job Title	DOT
Systems Engineer	030
Computer Engineer	030
Software Engineer	030
Applications Engineer	030
Graphic Designer	030
It Consultant	030
Data Processor	030
Web Developer	030
Member of Technical Staff	030

Table B
Corrections to the Job Code

Job Title	DOT
Systems Engineer	003
Computer Engineer	020
Software Engineer	020
Applications Engineer	020
Graphic Designer	141
It Consultant	039
Data Processor	203
Web Developer	039
Member of Technical Staff	039

 

You kept on insisting that you were seeing duplicates, and are again trying to claim that there is a problem with duplicates where in fact that isn't one of the listed problems with the data. You may want to refresh your memory with post #250. Here I'll just post the relevant segment in an ATTEMPT to reduce bandwidth..

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Finally, we have ARCSIGHT INC

Sure enough, it IS a US corporation. And sure enough there ARE records with the same start date. HOWEVER, if you look at the applications they filed for the TEMPE office, they have one application for 1 SOFTWARE ENGINEER each on the same date and TWO applications for 5 SOFTWARE ENGINEERS with the same date as the other applications. It becomes readily apparent that if they filed even ONE application with only ONE worker and ONE application with FIVE workers all with the same start date, that it is IS common practice to file separate applications with the same start date for the same location, salary, and job title.

You've just proven that your "bad data" theory is a "bad" assumption.

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Don't use up any more bandwidth. Drop it, you were wrong. And DON'T ever call me a liar again.

[discostu]

Notice their list of errors is prefaced with "including", that means there could be other errors not on the list.

No matter how you slice it there's tons of apparent duplicate entries and none of your explanations provide a remotely logical explanation. No reasonable person can think that DCM imported 3120 programmer/analyst/terrorist/sex slaves (if it wasn't for the terrorist part that could be a great company to work QA in... come on a little bit of levity, this situation is far too intense) under the cover of H1B visas. There's got to be something wrong with the data. It's jsut that simple, all your rantings can't change it. I've said numerous times the bad data could be DOL's fault. And golly your boys ALSO say there's the distinct possibility of bad data coming from DOL.

So I say there's bad data.
The guys providing the data say there's a good chance of bad data.
And yet you insist that I'm wrong.

Do you wear a red plastic nose?

[FormerLurker]

In post 261 and 250 you were shown that it is standard practice to submit LCA applications with the same start date and job title. IF you can't follow the logic, it is your lack of intelligence that is the issue, not the data.

No matter how you spin it, the number of application records submitted by a company is not an issue. I had said many times that if there are data errors, they are errors present in the DOL database and were not added or "massaged" by anyone at zazona.com. The owners of zazona.com HAVE described the known errors, and if there are duplicates, it is not their fault, as you had in fact earlier alleged.

IF you REALLY desire the truth in this, why don't you email the Department of Labor and ask THEM about the possibility of duplicate records. I DID find that the number of your so-called duplicates was directly related to the fact that MANY if not ALL of the foreign owned companies apparently had these "duplicates". As we had seen later on, the ONE US company that had these so-called "duplicates" had such a sequence as to demonstrate that it is normal for companies to submit multiple applications with the same start date and job title.

Now can you PLEASE just find another thread to haunt?

[discostu]

Neither of those posts say any such thing. also you've always insisted the data is absolutely correct that the odd numbers are because the companies are importing terrorists. I'm the one saying that that there's bad data. I've never once accused zazona of deliberately corrupting the data, the worst I've said about them is that it's possible their stored procedures that bring out the data (often refered to as "massaging data" but not in an indicting way, massages are a good thing, you need one, you seem tense) might suck. IMHO all zazona should do is make sure their procedures aren't the cause and if they aren't add to their FAQ that it looks like the DOL could have bizaare duplicate entries. What's the big deal?

See even you are finally admitting that the data could be bad. You could have done this yesterday instead of ranting on and on scrambling for possible explanations. But for whatever reason you refused to even entertain the possibility that a government organization could have crappy data until cornered and forced to. Don't go blaiming me for your own intransigence. This should have been four posts, you're the one that made it two days.

[FormerLurker]

Neither of those posts say any such thing. also you've always insisted the data is absolutely correct that the odd numbers are because the companies are importing terrorists.

Ok, here I'll truthfully and accurately call you a LIAR. I said that foreign companies MIGHT submit more applications than they have people due to the very real possibility that they MIGHT be selling work visas on the black market. You asked what would be their motive for submiting more applications than they had people, and that was my answer.

You later said that I hadn't given you a motive for why they would want to do that, and I again replied that those visas could be sold. I furthur stated that those visas COULD be sold to terrorists attempting to get into this country unnoticed. That IS a very real possibility that you refuse to acknowledge. There ARE also young women that are brought in for the dubious purpose of working in the sex trade. Obviously that notion appears ludricrous to you, but it DOES in fact happen. And of course there ARE people who simply want to skip into this country and live here illegally. Yet you refuse to see that fact.

If you want to do a post by post rehash of the above, I COULD do that if necessary. Doing so would waste a significant amount of bandwidth and time. Do you REALLY feel it necessary to do so?

I've never once accused zazona of deliberately corrupting the data, the worst I've said about them is that it's possible their stored procedures that bring out the data (often refered to as "massaging data" but not in an indicting way, massages are a good thing, you need one, you seem tense) might suck.

You have danced and skipped all over the place on this. You DID allude to a "deliberate falsification of data", and have repeatedly and shamelessly slandered the zazona.com website operators with no evidence to back up your groundless and inaccurate characterizations..

Quotes from you..

Now I'm a nice guy so I'll assume sloppy code not deliberate falsification of data, but either way the site isn't presenting an accurate picture.

I think there's something wierd in how your guys are pulling their data.

Sorry the problems with your guys.

Sorry, I'm of the school that who ever handled the data last is the ones that screwed things up, if the INS data is bad they could massage it, or at least point out that the INS data they're using sucks and has numerous apparent duplicates.

Which is why I place the blame on the last people to handle the data.

Incompitent people run databases all over the world. But again it's the frequency that's got me. Every search brings apparent dups. Fraud might be rampant in this program but the frequency of these dups is beyond rampant.

Great that shows your place's data sucks.

This doesn't add up to good data on that site.

. The difference here is I think the F'up is in the data (either the raw data your site is using or in how their mushing the data for their website).

No the data is NOT valid, we know that for sure.

One way or the other everything you see there should be taken with a few grains of salt.

As I said earlier, you must have some MAJOR interest in discrediting this information as you go on, and on, and on, and on, repeating the same nonsense endlessly. No matter how many ways I try to show you that it is clear that we have legitimate records even if they have the same start dates and job title due to the obvious pattern we saw for the Tempe records of ARCLIGHT, you repeat the same pattern of nonsense and denial over, and over, and over...

IMHO all zazona should do is make sure their procedures aren't the cause and if they aren't add to their FAQ that it looks like the DOL could have bizaare duplicate entries. What's the big deal?

If your reading comprehension were at least at 4th grade level, perhaps you'd know what an EXACT copy is. If you don't know what that means, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise. The database FAQ stated the database to be an EXACT duplicate of the DOL LCA database. It is presented as such, and as such it is making that declaration. They wouldn't want to be LIABLE for anything if it weren't true now would they...

See even you are finally admitting that the data could be bad.

I've said all along that might be a possibility, UNTIL it became apparent that it was more a function of whether or not the company was based in the US. As far as data errors, I had posted the FAQ on that for you a day or so ago..

You could have done this yesterday instead of ranting on and on scrambling for possible explanations. But for whatever reason you refused to even entertain the possibility that a government organization could have crappy data until cornered and forced to.

You ARE brain dead. I've just posted the proof that I ALREADY DID say that ANY errors are problems with the original DOL database. I've said that from square one, and I've never said otherwise. There WERE questions on this duplicate record business that we have gone and forth on, but ultimately I proved that it IS STANDARD PRACTICE FOR COMPANIES TO SUBMIT MULTIPLE APPLICATIONS FOR THE SAME START DATE.

Don't go blaiming me for your own intransigence. This should have been four posts, you're the one that made it two days.

You repeat the same lies over, and over, and over, and they still won't become true, they just become multiple lies. You have dragged this out for no reason other than disrupting this thread. Whatever meaningful discussion on this topic we had ended yesterday. You are using childish tactics in your attempt to portray this whole thing as a sham, and since your arguments lack merit you rant and rave and lie and obfuscuate and rant and lie some more.

Will you EVER simply give it a rest and go away? Again, you must have a SERIOUS interest in all of this to be so insistant. I have a good reason to fight my cause, as my future and possibly the future of my Nation depend on whether I succeed in bringing the truth out in this matter. What is YOUR agenda and whom do YOU serve?

[discostu]

Every time you ask me to go away I'm coming back. I do think it's zazona's job to do everything they can to insure the quality of the data they present, and if they're source data sucks they should give a FULLY INCLUSSIVE list of the ways they've found it to suck.

You'll also note that many many times I've stated that it's possible the erros come from the original DOL data. All you're creative quoting won't change what I said. While you were insisting that DCM was guilty of fraud I was saying the problem could be in the DOL data. It's in the thread painfully obvious for anyone to see.

Regardless of the source of the data problems it is the job of the PRESENTER to build confidence in the data, if that means putting footnotes on every single entry they display then by God they should put footnotes on every single entry they display. The whole corporate scandal meltdown with Enron and company revolves around auditors not doing enough to note bad data when they saw it. Zazona should learn from that lesson.

[FormerLurker]

Every time you ask me to go away I'm coming back.

Then you MUST be a shill. Who is paying you to disrupt threads on FR I wonder? Is it Enron, Global Crossing, Adelphia? Is it some rich fat exec who makes millions a year and isn't yet satisfied with what he has? Is it some cheap little man who thinks it's better for 12 year old children in China to work 14 hour days in order for him to pay $1 for something at WalMart that would have cost $2 if it had been made in the US instead?

I do think it's zazona's job to do everything they can to insure the quality of the data they present, and if they're source data sucks they should give a FULLY INCLUSSIVE list of the ways they've found it to suck.

You're obviously so brain dead and/or dishonest that you forget their FAQ DOES list all the data errors in the database. It is not THEIR database, it is the Department of Labor's database. They don't maintain it nor do they "massage" it. They simply have a copy of it and have provided a web based search engine that provides the ability to query the data. As I've said all along, you want to question the integrity of the database, then bring it up to the Department of Labor.

You'll also note that many many times I've stated that it's possible the erros come from the original DOL data. All you're creative quoting won't change what I said.

You MAY have just admitted as such, but you WERE insisting for the longest time it was zazona.com that was writing "crappy code", mishandling the data, and were generally inept. Your lies to the contrary notwithstanding, it is blatently obvious that you care less about the validity of the data than you do in DISCREDITING the validity of the data.

While you were insisting that DCM was guilty of fraud I was saying the problem could be in the DOL data. It's in the thread painfully obvious for anyone to see.

And it is plainfully obvious that you IGNORE any legitimate analysis of the data and that DCM DOES raise MANY red flags.

Regardless of the source of the data problems it is the job of the PRESENTER to build confidence in the data, if that means putting footnotes on every single entry they display then by God they should put footnotes on every single entry they display.

They need not bend over backwards to please inept shills at FR that want to discredit them. They list the errors that have become known, and duplicate records is NOT one of those errors. Again, call the Department of Labor and ask them about duplicate records if you are so concerned and interested in the subject.

The whole corporate scandal meltdown with Enron and company revolves around auditors not doing enough to note bad data when they saw it. Zazona should learn from that lesson.

No, the whole corporate meltdown scandal revolves around greed and dishonesty, the same character traits that quite obviously motivate you and your ilk.

I will feel NO sympathy for you whatsoever when you and your comrades' plans implode and you find yourselves begging for food. It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of fellows.

[discostu]

Ah yes the last defense of the hopelessly wrong. "You're a shill". I'd have to be a hell of a lot older to have worked for half the companies I've been accused of by people like you.

Here's the basic problem: you're full of crap, and I'm right. And the more desperate your accusations become the more it is my duty to defend my honor against these attacks upon my character.

No it's zazona's database which, as you've pointed out many times, is an exact replica of the DOL database. Two databases, one is owned by DOL and is the source for all the data, one is owned by zazona. That's THEIR database, regardless of what it's a copy of. I'm bringing it up to YOU because YOU'RE using it to prove some point, I'm pointing out that your evidence is flawed. This is your pet issue, YOU bring it up to DOL.

I was pointing out DOL's probable screw-up with the data when we were both falsely thinking it was the INS. You might not have heard me because you were screaming fraud over and over hoping it might come true. You're analysis isn't legitimate because it blatantly ignores the many other companies I pointed out had the same problem. You were focusing obsessively on one company as if that were the only example ignoring the evidence I had presented, thus completely invalidating your analysis, which I pointed out numerous times, but you were busy coming up with more and more dramatic excuses.

If they want to have the slightest credibility they need to define the limitations of the data they are presenting.

Ooops FL shows his ignorance of accounting again. If you look at the backlogs you'll find that the accounting firms in question FOUND all of the problems years ago but they did nothing about it. Thus THAT is the cause of the problem.

Oh now I'm a commie, keep the wild accusations coming FL, everyone invalidates your "case" a little more.

[FormerLurker]

You ARE a shill. I know, everyone here knows it, and you yourself know it. Why don't you just spill the beans and confess that you take money from some Indian sweat shop so as to infiltrate FR and spew your inane blather?

[FormerLurker]

BTW discostu, do you molest little children too? You're friend in LA liked little girls, I'm sure you are at least into that. Now if you're islamic, I'm sure that you just LOVE young boys. Is that what this is all about?

[SwordofTruth]

Foreign workers are more likely to not be loyal to the USA and represent a HUGE security risk for many US firms. Companies may be receiving cheaper skilled labor for the short-term, but this shortsighted approach can and most likely will turn around and bite them in the long-term.

[FormerLurker]

Thank you. Your response has been the first intelligent response on this thread from another poster since yesterday morning. Thanks for your honesty and insight.

[discostu]

Yeah I get paid lots of money to debunk stupid things on FR like crop circles, John Edward, and H1B fears. You caught me, my boss is Ozzy Osborne, another "topic" of interest for me on FR periodically.

[discostu]

I don't have any friends in LA and I don't like kids on any level. Whacko.

[rdb3]

I was one of the laid-off software developers. But now I have my own company, which is something I've always wanted.

Chicken. Egg.

At any rate, I agree with you on this. This is like a memory leak. This money should not be departing our economy because of the H-1(b) visas.

No mercy.
Coming soon: Tha SYNDICATE.

[FormerLurker]

I don't have any friends in LA and I don't like kids on any level. Whacko.

And you've never "rented a room in the Hotel California" either I bet...

[FormerLurker]

I was one of the laid-off software developers. But now I have my own company, which is something I've always wanted.

Excellent!

Chicken. Egg.

A lot of chickens these days are only attracted to foreign roosters..

At any rate, I agree with you on this. This is like a memory leak. This money should not be departing our economy because of the H-1(b) visas.

This isn't just a memory leak, it's wholesale memory corruption. Sooner or later it'll simply crash.