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Take A Stand: Vote against H1B, Boycott H1B Companies
Self
| November 2, 2002
| FormerLurker
Posted on 11/01/2002 8:18:12 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: discostu
Which is why I place the blame on the last people to handle the data. You make serious allegations. You claim that those who administer the database are either incompetent or that they are purposely manipulating the data in order to show a problem where there is none.
Since fraud IS rampant in relation to immigration issues, a federal investigation has PROVEN that to be true, and the INS is the agency where much of that fraud has taken place, I'd say the only "problem" with the data is that it is in fact valid. Perhaps someone should look into that company you used as an example a little closer, if you know what I mean...
To: FormerLurker
Incompitent people run databases all over the world. But again it's the frequency that's got me. Every search brings apparent dups. Fraud might be rampant in this program but the frequency of these dups is beyond rampant.
To: discostu
From
Accelerated Technology and DCM Technologies Provide Source Code Bluetooth Solution for Nucleus Developers in Wireless Markets About DCM Technologies
DCM Technologies provides its customization and design services through its current strength of 300 plus engineers located at its headquarter in National Capital Region New Delhi, India and design center in Austin Texas, and sales and support offices in Newark, California, Boston, Massachusetts and Tokyo Japan. More information on DCM Technologies can be obtained at http://www.dcmtech.com/.
Well, it appears that they have 300 "plus" engineers working for them. I find it hard to believe that they would have hired all of them on the same day, but apparently they have. That is what the INS data shows, and for them not to question it is highly dubious....
To: FormerLurker
Great that shows your place's data sucks. The 104 listings for 30 H1Bs each is 3120 people, all programmer/analysts, all in America. But according to this the have around 1/10 that many engineers (which might or might not be limited to programmer/analysts) WORLDWIDE. This doesn't add up to good data on that site.
To: discostu
In fact, why would DCM have to apply for hundreds if not thousands of H1-B workers for its sales offices? They are headquartered in India and the development is performed both there and in Texas. As some development is reportedly performed in Austin, it might make sense if they filed applications for that location. BUT, they've filed applications for ALL of their locations which are simply "sales" offices...
To: discostu
This doesn't add up to good data on that site. You're right that something doesn't add up, but I doubt it has anything to do with the database....
To: FormerLurker
Exactly. The difference here is I think the F'up is in the data (either the raw data your site is using or in how their mushing the data for their website). With what little I know of H1b process having worked for a company with offices in other countries and H1B employees here's my guess:
DCM wanted to transfer some people from India to America
For whatever reason that filing either was done for or was counted against all their American sites
So the 30 we see in all the line items would be the actual number of H1Bs, as for where they actually are it's anybody's guess
What I don't know about the H1B processing is how/ why it would count against all the cities. That could be anything from the right way to file if you're not sure where the people are actually going to go, to the guys running the site counting the filing against every city the company is in, with a layover in that's just how the INS does things (the fact that it appears 3 times in Tucson kind of leans me away from it being DCM's fault though). Regardless what we're getting is a grossly innacurate picture that heavily inflates the H1B problem.
To: discostu
From
LCA Database FAQs Are Database Errors Corrected?
The data in the database is an exact replication of the DOL data that was obtained using the Freedom of Information Act. This data is not modified or corrected for errors because a lot can be learned from the errors the data contains. It is not the mission of ZaZona.com to correct errors in our government databases.
So I was wrong, the data is from the Department of Labor instead of INS. HOWEVER, the data IS an exact duplicate of that provided by the DOL. SO, if there's a problem with the data, it is the DOL that either collected the data incorrectly or the data is in fact valid.
To: discostu
That could be anything from the right way to file if you're not sure where the people are actually going to go, to the guys running the site counting the filing against every city the company is in.. It is Department of Labor that provides that data. The "guys running the site" DO NOT "count" anything....
To: FormerLurker
No the data is NOT valid, we know that for sure. The question becomes:
Was it crap coming from the DOL
Was there an error in their method of "exact copying" (sorry but I'm betting they aren't getting a hold of the original DOL database, they've got to be copying with some sort of procedure, that procedure could be bad)
Is there an error in how their queries are pulling data out of the DB and putting it in the grid
One way or the other everything you see there should be taken with a few grains of salt.
To: Red Jones
The VS .NET stuff is so productive, just buy it and two or three of the MSPress books, and you'll be up and running in a month. It is now supereasy to do remote objects. The IDE creates proxy objects for you from the WSDL interface description, and all the .NET languages garbage collect, so you just instantiate interface objects and call the methods. And all the multithreading and thread-cacheing stuff is also transparent now. So what used to be a giant pain is five pages of code.
I've never done database-centric systems, but AFAIK VFP is still client/server, and .NET is inherently 3-tier and Web UI. If database apps are your thang, you gotta do it.
211
posted on
11/05/2002 10:21:23 AM PST
by
eno_
To: discostu
No the data is NOT valid, we know that for sure. NO, we DON'T know that for sure. It may very well be that DCM has engaged in fraudulent applications. That is what the data shows. Let the chips fall where they may, but I would like to see DCM investigated. If ZaZona.com has incorrectly handled the DOL data, then let them be liable for damages. If the data is correct, let DCM be indicted. If DOL collected and/or administered the data incorrectly, let them apologize to everyone concerned...
To: eno_
thanks, that sounds like a very good plan.
To: FormerLurker
Who would want to work for a company that either cannot tell if an immigrant engineer has padded their resume, or that willfully hires cheap seatwarmers to bill to their clients? The Accentures and KPMGs and EDSs are all, deservedly, taking it in the shorts. All they cared about was billing more. The really stupid people are the ones that got ripped off by IT outsourcing/consulting outfits. Screw them all.
214
posted on
11/05/2002 10:25:38 AM PST
by
eno_
To: FormerLurker
No we do know the data is invalid, it lists DCM as having over 3000 H1B programmer/analysts in America and the only have 300 engineers worldwide. That's invalid data. Why investigate DCM? Why would a company apply for 10 times as many H1Bs as they could possibly need? The usual fraud in this is employers having aliens working for them on expired or never even applied for H1Bs, not 10 times as much permission for H1Bs as employees. The data's bad, we know this with absolute certainty. The why's and wherefores really don't matter for this discussion. It's bad, feces happens, can we move on.
To: discostu
No we do know the data is invalid, it lists DCM as having over 3000 H1B programmer/analysts in America and the only have 300 engineers worldwide. Wrong. It IS possible that DCM DID file 104 applications for 3000 H1B programmer/analysts. That is what should be investigated.
To: eno_
The problem is more widespread than you think. It is INTEL, COMPUWARE, HEWLETT PACKARD, and many other VERY large corporations that engage in this practice.
To: discostu
No we do know the data is invalid, it lists DCM as having over 3000 H1B programmer/analysts in America and the only have 300 engineers worldwide. One other thing. IF they were to bring somebody in from India to work at the Austin facility, the worker would be a software engineer, not a programmer/analyst. Software engineers earn more than programmer/analysts, so they obviously lied on the application in order to avoid paying the higher salary for an engineer.
To: discostu
so you found a problem in the data. Maybe this company has sent some h1b's home since getting them. Companies are perfectly free to import an h1b and then decide not to use them, at that point the h1b must go home. Can you imagine how they get people to compete for the job if they're in the habit of sending back 50%? Also, it might be that they brought the h1b person in and then arranged to farm the person out to someone else, maybe they somehow transferred 'sponsorship' to someone. Maybe the law is written in such a way that if they understand it, then they can import people systematically and in essence sell them to someone. That's how things work, fancy laws are made and those who read and understand the laws can do unusual things to rake in dollars.
But we know for sure that congress did approve 195,000 h1b's per year. Government also says that in recent years they've been actually bringing in 165,000 or so per year. The total who have received h1b and are in the country now exceeds one million.
Read Matloff's research for the best picture. He focuses in on one guy who came to america from India about 20 years ago, he became a programmer, he worked for years and now he can't find a job. He says that 3 times he went through the job interview process for big companies and was right about to be hired when they asked him if he was eligible for h1b status. He said 'no, I am US citizen' and that was the end of the conversation in each of the 3 cases. This is a fellow who is convinced that because he's ethnic Indian the companies were after him, then when they found out he couldn't be h1b person, they dropped him.
We've created a surrealistic job market in software. It is insanity, there is a mountain of evidence to show this.
To: Red Jones
We can all thank discostu for identifying an obvious case of questionable business practices...
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