Airbus, American Airlines swap charges at crash hearing.

I flew the Airbus A310 for Pan Am from 1989 to 1991. As a former fighter pilot, I was used to standing on the rudder when I needed it. When I got on the A-310, I was told "Stay off the rudder" due to potential airframe problems. The article mentions that this topic came up in the late 90's, but Pan Am knew about it ten years prior. I have felt all along that flight 587 got deep into wake turbulence that caused a loss of lift on one side of the airframe and the pilots countered with excessive rudder which caused catastrophic failure. I'm sure the tin foil hatters will flame me, but this conclusion makes the most sense. Where are the aero engineers on FR?

I flew the Airbus A310 for Pan Am from 1989 to 1991. As a former fighter pilot, I was used to standing on the rudder when I needed it.

Oh, yeah - sure - like your experience means anything around here. :)

For the record, I spent ten years in aircraft maintenance - Falcons and Eagles. So yeah, I know what you mean about the tin-foil hatters - I've been through the same thing.

As far as wake turbulence - I'm on your side.

I argued against the foilers for days after the accident. I'm an ex AF F-4 mechanic, civilian A&P, and commercial pilot with a few thousand hours.

It was quite obvious from looking at the pix from the crash that the tail separated clean from the fuselage. With the bolts still in place and no saw marks, I can see no way for this to be sabotage.

It was particularly hard to get across that it didn't make any sense that BOTH engines departed the airframe at about the same time if this was sabotage. How was a bad guy going to do this trick? Perfectly timed explosions on both engine pylons?

Nah. Tail came off. Plane twisted around. Engines came off because of G load and/or gyroscopic forces. Plane hit ground.

Go take it to Airbus for building a defective airplane.

I'm just amazed that it was so difficult for me to keep a teeny 2 seat 60 year old antique airplane legal with the FAA, but they continue to fly these french airplanes that quite obviously kill people because of defects.

I have a layman's systems overview video for the A-320 which gives the distinct impression that the computers "protect the flight envelope". I.e., human input past certain threshholds are forbidden. Is this not the case with Airbus systems across their other types?

Its not really true that the computers can "protect the flight envelope" in an absolute sense. If some suicidal pilot decided to nose it over and fly into the ground, the computer isn't going to stop that. The best statement I can make is that the computer will protect you within certain ranges, but outside those ranges, you can tear the wings off, etc. Bearing in mind that they were mired deep in wake turbulence, that would not be a normal flight envelope event that the computer is programmed to handle. I admit that I am not a flight control computer expert, I am a pilot, but that is my perspective.

Was rudder trim effective only to a certain point and would the computer then override it and lock it out?

Thanks, CA. S actually asked the question better. But I think I see your point.

What really pisses me off from reading this story is that Airbus has the cajones to blame AA for its' training - training which is based upon flight data gathered during Airbus' certification effort. All of the data I've gathered on flights was "filtered" and fed into the simulators so that conceptual, computer-generated flight characteristics could be bounced off of real-time data. This "baselining" of the data improved the accuracy of the handling equations so that near-actual flight could be useful for training in the sims.

As I recall, on the A-310 (similar to the A-300 involved in the accident) the computer couldn't stop you from overstressing the airframe 100% of the time. It seems from the investigation that the limits on rudder travel were based on the idea of stable flight conditions and nominal use by the pilots. Airbus isn't about to admit a design flaw, though it seems that might be the case, at least given the circumstances.

I've read that the wake turbulence was supposed to be within acceptable limits. What time/distance would you recommend between flights taking off, if the amount in this case wasn't enough?

Jet "exploded into pieces"
Feds Downplay Flt. 587 Explosion Reports

Breakup of Airliner is captured on security film.
Flight 587 Video Shows "Puff of Smoke" in Sky
FBI Sitting on Flt. 587 Videotape

Accident Theories Falling Like Dominoes (a collection of trial balloons)
Air Turbulence May Be Factor in Jetline Crash, Officials Say
Sabotage Explains Fight 587 Crash, Expert Says

JetBlue Pilot Saw American Airlines Crash
Flt. 587 Eyewitnesses insist Expolsion Came Before Tail Broke Off
Flight 587 probe focusing on what made tail fall off

Flight 587 Witnesses Blast Feds
Flight 587:Video May Hold the Key

Two eyewitness to the Nov. 12 crash of American Airlines Flight 587 said over the weekend that investigators for the National Transportation Safety Board are wrong to focus on potential structural defects as the cause of the disaster - insisting instead that the plane's tail came off over New York's Jamaica Bay only after it exploded in a fireball.

"It was after the explosion," eyewitness Tom Lynch, a retired firefighter, told the New York Post. "I'm telling you, the tail was there until the second explosion."

"No tail fell off, not before the explosion. I swear to that," Lynch told the paper's Steve Dunleavy.

The eyewitness said there was absolutely no doubt about what he saw.

"I had my head up taking in that beautiful, clear day and was staring straight at the plane. It made a bank turn and suddenly there was an explosion, orange and black, on the right-hand side of the fuselage. It was a small explosion, about half the size of a car."

He continued:

"The plane kept on going straight for about two or three seconds as if nothing had happened, then ‘vwoof' - the second, big explosion on the right wing, orange and black. It was only then that the plane fell apart. It was after the explosion and I'm telling you, the tail was there until the second explosion."

Lynch, who lives near the Belle Harbor, N.Y. crash site, said he knew thirteen others who also saw the explosion and/or fire.

One, retired police lieutenant Jim Conrad, told Dunleavy:

"I saw exactly what Tom saw. I was near a stop light at the Marine Parkway Bridge. First, the small explosion. The plane kept on going, tail intact, then the big explosion and the plane nose-dived. The first thing I said was: ‘The bastards did it again.'"

Lynch said he's tried to contact the FBI and the NTSB but they weren't interested in his story. Ditto Sens. Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, and his congressional representative Anthony Weiner, who also gave him the brush off.

"I got no response from anyone," he said.

Last week NewsMax.com asked New York State's newly appointed public security czar James Kallstrom why a traffic surveillance video that reportedly captured Flt. 587's mid-air break up has not been publicly released.

"I have not seen the tape. I heard some mention of it. But I've not seen the tape and I really have no knowledge of it," Kallstrom said.

"Why it hasn't been released, I suspect, is because the investigation is ongoing. But I don't know the answer to that."

On Fox 5 NY a man named Kenneth Brown said this to Rosanna ? and John ?

John: Ken, you there?

Ken, yes yes I am.

John: Can you tell us what you saw Ken?

Ken: Alright, I was out on the boat about a hundred twentieth a hundred nineteenth st when un we stopped the boat cause we have an engine..yah know the engine was making weird sounds, so we stopped the boat and we were back by the engine and I heard a popping sound...not like a a a I cant even say it was an explosion, it was more like a pop and then like a whishing sound and then part of the wing came off.

John:Where was the plane at that moment?

Ken: Right over the bay. Right over the bay

John So is it almost right above you?

Ken: Yes, kinda to the north of us, cause we where more to the east channel drive at that time, on that side of Jamaica Bay and um the pieces that came off the wing...flew into the um tail and tore the tail off and as soon as that happened the plane went belly up towards us and towards the east and it just dove straight down, like the uhh the belly of the plane actually turned toward the south and it went straight down into the ground.

John: So you saw some big pieces of this plane come off...

Ken:We was the first ones on the scene and then the police boat came and we helped them pick up parts of the boat..uh..parts a the plane. We actually took up the blue A off of the tail we put that in the boat. Ummm the picture of the....another piece of the whole top of the tail with the flag on it was laying in shallow water. We took up allot of pieces of the boat...the plane we put it on the boat and took them in to the police boat an helped load em onto the police boat but a a the engine

Rosannabreaks in: Well it sounds like you have some crucial information Ken...

His voice rising Ken says: See the engine...everybody keeps saying the engine fell off...if it fell off it fell off on the way down....

John:U Huh

Ken: That plane as soon as its tail came off it just bellied up and went straight down, so yah know people saying yah know the engine came off, but that came off after the fact. Now as far as explosion, something was happening over the bay, something made the wing shatter and took of the tail. and uh the way I seen it , it still looked like it had its engines on as it was going down.

John: Have you spoken to anyone there uh Ken have you talked to any members of the..

Ken Yeh a yeh police I gave the police a guy in a police boat my name and all that and when I was helping em with ya know the parts of the plane

Woman Ken you sound very shacking up , I'm sure this has..

Ken: I'm still shacking, its a its just a terrible sight. Ya know its something ya see on a movie Ya know how the plane..ya just just knew it..that it wouldn't, as it was going down I was saying hit the ocean hit the ocean thinking ya know maybe it cleared, its only 4 blocks wide but the plane just turned over and came straight down. It was..its a sight to see..it was ya know stunned me

Woman Were you able to keep your composure and think clearly at that point?

Ken: Yes, actually actually the things was starting to fly down toward the boat so we backed up a little bit toward the the trestles the A train trestle and then we came back to see if they was any...ah cause at one time I thought I could see a seat but I wasn't even sure, Nothing heavy came down, everything floated down

Woman: Do you think you got everything that was in the water?

Ken Mostly everything that was floating yah. Cause a the police boat came like the within 5 minutes..3 minutes maybe but that plane was gone in 6 seconds, when I heard the popping sound and seen the flames seen the uh wing hit the back tail an that came off it couldn't a been more than 3 seconds for it was down

John: So your saying the wing came off and hit the tail?

Ken: Parts yes...the whole section of the tail was what we recovered. The A the little flag on the top of the tail section that whole section, like the 30 foot top of that was stuck in the sand...in the water about 5 feet of water but there was other pieces floating around..as a matter of fact I took the blue A and we pulled that part on the boat and brought it over to the police boat. They was asking for our help then allot of boats came by allot of police boats

John:Nick your sitting hearing what Ken is saying that if any any questions for him? Nick Well um it sounds like Ken is your describing is a again that something exploded uh to cause these pieces of the wing to come out. Is that what you sug..

Ken: Exactly something happened to that wing that sent pieces of it back to the tail.

John was it the left wing or the right wing Ken do ya know?

Ken ahh see now like my friend..well.. a it bellied up to me and a when it bellied up to the east it a looked like the right wing cause the left wing still looked intact to me. It looked like the right wing had come off..or part of it

John: well that would fit with what the

(over talk..engine..saying..?)Nick: Unnn but again Ken Kinda saying the engine fell off after the fact but still potentially the engine exploding could could cause pieces of the engine to fly I mean what may have happened was a a series of events where pieces if the engine actually flew back and struck the tail or even that pieces of the engine and the wing at the same time so a but a Kens observations of the tail is a very interesting clue

John Do you live around there Ken?

Ken Yes, I live in Hamilton beach right off Jamaica Bay and a thats the whole thing..That plane would have went over Rockaway cause it was still like level until the tail came off and then it just bellied up and spun around and came straight down uh otherwise it would..that tail..as soon as it shattered thats when the plane lost everything

Nick: Now Ken did you see actual flames coming out of an engine that was..?

Ken: There was flames on the belly of the plane..I don't know weather it was the engine or ya know, but the plane bellied up towards us as it was going down and flames in the a..in that vicinity of the engines or whatever like underneath the plane

Well Ken we a thank you for your time

Ken: No Problem

On Fox 5 NY a man named Kenneth Brown said this to Rosanna ? and John ?

John: Ken, you there?

Ken, yes yes I am.

John: Can you tell us what you saw Ken?

Ken: Alright, I was out on the boat about a hundred twentieth a hundred nineteenth st when un we stopped the boat cause we have an engine..yah know the engine was making weird sounds, so we stopped the boat and we were back by the engine and I heard a popping sound...not like a a a I cant even say it was an explosion, it was more like a pop and then like a whishing sound and then part of the wing came off.

John:Where was the plane at that moment?

Ken: Right over the bay. Right over the bay

John So is it almost right above you?

Ken: Yes, kinda to the north of us, cause we where more to the east channel drive at that time, on that side of Jamaica Bay and um the pieces that came off the wing...flew into the um tail and tore the tail off and as soon as that happened the plane went belly up towards us and towards the east and it just dove straight down, like the uhh the belly of the plane actually turned toward the south and it went straight down into the ground.

John: So you saw some big pieces of this plane come off...

Ken:We was the first ones on the scene and then the police boat came and we helped them pick up parts of the boat..uh..parts a the plane. We actually took up the blue A off of the tail we put that in the boat. Ummm the picture of the....another piece of the whole top of the tail with the flag on it was laying in shallow water. We took up allot of pieces of the boat...the plane we put it on the boat and took them in to the police boat an helped load em onto the police boat but a a the engine

Rosannabreaks in: Well it sounds like you have some crucial information Ken...

His voice rising Ken says: See the engine...everybody keeps saying the engine fell off...if it fell off it fell off on the way down....

John:U Huh

Ken: That plane as soon as its tail came off it just bellied up and went straight down, so yah know people saying yah know the engine came off, but that came off after the fact. Now as far as explosion, something was happening over the bay, something made the wing shatter and took of the tail. and uh the way I seen it , it still looked like it had its engines on as it was going down.

John: Have you spoken to anyone there uh Ken have you talked to any members of the..

Ken Yeh a yeh police I gave the police a guy in a police boat my name and all that and when I was helping em with ya know the parts of the plane

Woman Ken you sound very shacking up , I'm sure this has..

Ken: I'm still shacking, its a its just a terrible sight. Ya know its something ya see on a movie Ya know how the plane..ya just just knew it..that it wouldn't, as it was going down I was saying hit the ocean hit the ocean thinking ya know maybe it cleared, its only 4 blocks wide but the plane just turned over and came straight down. It was..its a sight to see..it was ya know stunned me

Woman Were you able to keep your composure and think clearly at that point?

Ken: Yes, actually actually the things was starting to fly down toward the boat so we backed up a little bit toward the the trestles the A train trestle and then we came back to see if they was any...ah cause at one time I thought I could see a seat but I wasn't even sure, Nothing heavy came down, everything floated down

Woman: Do you think you got everything that was in the water?

Ken Mostly everything that was floating yah. Cause a the police boat came like the within 5 minutes..3 minutes maybe but that plane was gone in 6 seconds, when I heard the popping sound and seen the flames seen the uh wing hit the back tail an that came off it couldn't a been more than 3 seconds for it was down

John: So your saying the wing came off and hit the tail?

Ken: Parts yes...the whole section of the tail was what we recovered. The A the little flag on the top of the tail section that whole section, like the 30 foot top of that was stuck in the sand...in the water about 5 feet of water but there was other pieces floating around..as a matter of fact I took the blue A and we pulled that part on the boat and brought it over to the police boat. They was asking for our help then allot of boats came by allot of police boats

John:Nick your sitting hearing what Ken is saying that if any any questions for him? Nick Well um it sounds like Ken is your describing is a again that something exploded uh to cause these pieces of the wing to come out. Is that what you sug..

Ken: Exactly something happened to that wing that sent pieces of it back to the tail.

John was it the left wing or the right wing Ken do ya know?

Ken ahh see now like my friend..well.. a it bellied up to me and a when it bellied up to the east it a looked like the right wing cause the left wing still looked intact to me. It looked like the right wing had come off..or part of it

John: well that would fit with what the

(over talk..engine..saying..?)Nick: Unnn but again Ken Kinda saying the engine fell off after the fact but still potentially the engine exploding could could cause pieces of the engine to fly I mean what may have happened was a a series of events where pieces if the engine actually flew back and struck the tail or even that pieces of the engine and the wing at the same time so a but a Kens observations of the tail is a very interesting clue

John Do you live around there Ken?

Ken Yes, I live in Hamilton beach right off Jamaica Bay and a thats the whole thing..That plane would have went over Rockaway cause it was still like level until the tail came off and then it just bellied up and spun around and came straight down uh otherwise it would..that tail..as soon as it shattered thats when the plane lost everything

Nick: Now Ken did you see actual flames coming out of an engine that was..?

Ken: There was flames on the belly of the plane..I don't know weather it was the engine or ya know, but the plane bellied up towards us as it was going down and flames in the a..in that vicinity of the engines or whatever like underneath the plane

Well Ken we a thank you for your time

Ken: No Problem

All aircraft have flight limits. Even modern fighters with fly by wire avionics and controls can be over overloaded, but flight characteristics are controlled by the flight control computers. The flight computers on most similar aircraft such as the Boeing 767 prevent control surface movement from going beyond flight limts regardless of amount of control inputs from the cockpit. However, this is under most normal conditions or what engineers can plan and program the computers for. If the AOA or other sensors fail or encounter abnormal circumstances than what the computers are designed for than to much control surface deflection could possibly occur. This is one possible reason for the wake turbulance to cause such a situation not adequately programmed for in the flight envelope. However, it sounds like the Airbus was designed with unlimited rudder capability which relied on the pilot familiarity with the aircraft operation to not exceed design limits. This is easy to do for airspeed and altitude but for rudder yaw control??? Questionable at best and more the responsibility of Airbus.

When the AA191 out of Chicago crashed (DC-10) when the left engine came off at rotation the pilot fallowed the one engine out flight manual to the letter and still crashed. This is because the wing slats retracted uncommanded because of hydraulic damage on the damaged side and stalled the wing forcing the jet to roll uncommnaded when the pilot reduced speed as required by the flight manual. If he had maintained aispeed and lowered the nose he could have controlled the flight.

The airbus digital flight recorders should indicate rudder forces used and deflection of control surface to determine if action was within flight limits by the crew. If this is the case the fault is still on Airbus for not enough control by the flight computers for this flight regime.

Modern fly by wire fighters change flight control characteristic instantly simply by activating certain weapons instantly and automaticaly. The computers instantly configure the aircraft for the best flight characteristics based upon stores configuration, weight and CG, weapon system activated and or radar mode and other factors. The pilot doen't have to guess or set trim or other factors it is programmed and automatic. The same is true for modern airliners to some degree which change characteristics based upon landing gear configuration, flap setting, etc...Airbus should have an answer as to why the rudder came off and I doubt it was the pilots fault.

The rudder came off first. As the Airbus yawed and rolled the design flight limits were exceeded and the engines were ripped off. The falmes came from stalled engines back firing during this process and the angle of attack and inlets were obstructed and unburnt fuel flamed out the back.

The explosions were certainly massive compressor stalls caused by the excessive yaw. Large fan engines would have compressor stalls that would look and sound like an explosion on the ground. Nothing strange about that.

And you have how much experience in aviation?

And you have alot of experience in avation?

Yes, I have a lot of experience in aviation, thanks, just as I said in my original comment on the thread.

And my best to you, Tom. Keep that tinfoil tight.