Posted on 10/28/2002 11:05:47 PM PST by Destro
28 Oct 2002 16:53
Gas used in Moscow siege may have been BZ
LONDON, Oct 28 (Reuters) - The gas used to end the Moscow theatre siege, which killed more than 100 hostages as well as their captors, may have been BZ, a London security expert said on Monday.
The Russian government has so far refused to name the gas which special troops pumped into the theatre on Saturday to knock out the Chechen rebels holding around 800 hostages.
Top Moscow doctors say that of 117 hostages who perished, only two died of gunshot wounds and the rest of gas poisoning. Of 646 people still in hospital on Sunday, 150 were in intensive care, 45 of them in a "grave condition", they said.
London security expert Michael Yardley said the gas used may have been BZ a colourless incapacitant with hallucinogenic properties.
DESCRIPTION - BZ denotes the hydrochloride salt of 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate. It is a colourless, odourless incapacitant.
EXPOSURE - Inhalation is the most likely route. It may be disseminated in aerosol form, from solutions, pyrotechnically or as a pre-sized powder.
The human median lethal dose is estimated to be in the range of 35-225 mg for a 70 kg individual.
EFFECTS - Acts on the peripheral autonomic and central nervous systems resulting in loss of motor coordination, memory loss, fainting, dry mouth, irregular heartbeats, nausea, vomiting, hallucinations.
Symptoms are time and dose dependent. Cumulative effects possible following repeated exposures.
According to the U.S. army the side effects last 60 hours.
PREVIOUS USE - First used by U.S. forces in Vietnam, BZ group gases were also believed to have been used by Serb forces against Kosovo Albanians in 1999.
(Some information is taken from draft annexe 3 to World Health Organisation publication "Public health response to biological and chemical weapons: WHO guidance" www.who.int/emc/pdfs/DraftAnnex3WS.pdf)
It was in the DoD FY67 testimony, maybe the senior poohbah (no relation to me :o) of chem/bio (their motto: "Up your a** with bugs and gas" :o) from the army. It was VERY much in passing, because the whole thing was a Class-A Charlie-Fox.
Nukes were considered, but never used.
There was a proposal to relieve Dien Bien Phu in 1954--Operation Vulture. 3 nukes delivered onto the Viet Minh. Ike thought it was a pretty stupid idea and vetoed it. Suggested reading: The Sky Would Fall, by John Prados. Nixon mentioned it in his memoirs.
Many things considered, but never used.
True enough. However, BZ was considered to be nonlethal, and much less likely to cause international problems than, say, nukes.
One GI claimed he used BZ in hand grenades.
Sounds like a case of Stolen Valor to me.
Doesn't seem plausible.
Concur.
Again, not denying it's use in VN, just would like to see absolute proof it was utilized and where/how employed.
I seem to recall that some folks from the PsyOps community were involved. and that it was essentially a spray effort from a modified "Ranch Hand" bird.
Serbs were alleged to have used it, yet evidence of such use is hard to come by. "Lingering clouds" after mortar attacks. Odd "feelings" reported,etc. But firm evidence?
The only firm evidence would be a toxicology report--and that would presume that the toxicologist knew what stuff BZ left behind after the body metabolized it.
In addition to the French request for "assistance" during the Seige of Dien Bien Phu, another nuclear proposal was promulgated during US involvement in VN. The plan was the clandestine insertion (via SOG Teams) of a low-yield nuke into the area of the Mu Gia Pass (N.VN). Intended purpose was to block key entrance to Ho Chi Minh trail, which USAF had been unable to seal conventionally. Obviously, it was never utilized.
In Bosnia, Serbs were alleged to have used an "incapacitating agent" which caused hallucinations among those fleeing Srebnica. Even reports that it caused them to shoot themselves and each other. Seems far-fetched, especially in light of the coverage the war received, the numbers of foreign "observers",etc.
I'll see what I can dig up. However, it all seems to me like another "rumor" that gets magnified over time, then once it hits the internet becomes "Megabyted."
Hrm.
Hrm.
(Would those have been the Muslim "dogs"?)
I was suggesting that the GI claiming to have used BZ hand grenades may have been a fraud of some sort, possibly to the point of not even having served...
Like I said, BZ was used ONCE, and everyone realized what a f***up it was. It's kinda hard to talk about how EE-VIL it was to use it when the only targets were heavily armed VC, and the INTENT was to just incapacitate them, not kill them (but they required a LOT of killing when they wigged out).
If I get enough info, I may do a FOIA on this.
He didn't mention the homeless guy outside my office who claims to have been a Green Beret and exposed to Agent Orange, either. He can't catch EVERY fraud out there :o)
Fumes from Old Crusty?
Seriously, it just seems to me that Burkett/Whitley would have explored this issue as they did herbicides, etc. Much too serious to let it pass-if they had been aware of it and gave it any credence.
Hmm. He may have gotten a very garbled version of the real story, or he may have done the garbling himself.
He further stated "200-300 died," presumably as a result of this "exposure" to BZ.
The total number of folks on both sides--American and VC--of the op didn't total up to 200. This was something like a platoon of VC in an abandoned village, the Americans sprayed some BZ from a modified Ranch Hand bird, nobody died of BZ exposure, but the VC fought to the death--they were just stone crazy after breathing BZ. Like I said, slipping someone a hallucinogenic substance while they're scared s**tless is a great way to have them freak out :o)
The only thing anybody died of was kinetic energy poisoning.
Just doesn't seem correct.
As told--it sure as hell isn't.
Reminds me of the allegations made in TAILWIND re:Sarin gas usage. Totally debunked.
Yup. But in this case, the real truth is that we had a not-so-bright idea, we tried it out, none of our people died as a result, and all of the VC would've died anyway, and then we decided not to talk overmuch about it--not because it made us look evil (it didn't), but because it made us look STOO-PID!
Frankly, I've always figured Disco was an exercise in psy-op mind control if not studied degradation of the physiology ... the lights and noise (and drugs) all having their effect on the pulmonary and cardiac systems, the senses and the brain. What else could explain it? =)
I went to a couple of rave parties back when I.C. Freely was hanging out at a warehouse where I helped a friend do scenics and I've sat at the bar as the tango folks left and the DJ's came on. It was like watching lab rats ... some cottoning to the groove, others totally tripping on the chemicals and some just curled up in fetal positions along the walls. The utter lack of communication also interested me. Each in their own world ... many of the DJ's rarely even looking up and, if they did, looking past as a rule unless someone was naked or something.
The nudity in itself aberrant and signal of exactly the sort of disconnect with common sense sought by Gramsci, if not the embrace of the Long Pig "being there" encouraged by Madison Avenue.
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