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Stop the Insanity® [Indianapolis Colts vs. Indianapolis Star]
coltpower.com ^ | Monday, October21, 2002 | Brian L. Casserly

Posted on 10/21/2002 1:01:03 PM PDT by VaBthang4

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1 posted on 10/21/2002 1:01:03 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: VaBthang4
Why should non-football fans be forced to subsidize football?

I guess the answer always is "It's a good investment". Leaving aside the fact that all the studies show that these things never turn out to be such good investments, why should the government be in the investing business? If "It's a good investment" is a good enough reason for a football team, why not the stock market?

3. their own? Well, people can invest in a football stadium on their own, too. There is no reason why the Colt's can't float a bond for the stadium. If it is such a good investment, people will flock to the bond-offering.

Of course, if it is such a good investment, that is exactly what the Colts would do. However, they know its not a good investment so they want others to put up the money.

2 posted on 10/21/2002 1:36:11 PM PDT by Rodney King
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To: Rodney King
Woops, my middle parapgraph is all cut up. It should read "..I guess beacause people can invest in the stock market on their own..."
3 posted on 10/21/2002 1:39:17 PM PDT by Rodney King
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To: 2Am4Sure; AFreeBird; bleudevil; carmelanne; Dakmar; Elsie; hoosierRn; isom35; joebuck; ...

4 posted on 10/21/2002 1:58:00 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: Rodney King
Thanks for all of the conspiracy theories but numbers were posted...

If the city invests 200 million dollars in a stadium today –and in the process locks the team in Indy for the next 20 years – (Market interest rate we'll say is 6%) the Colts Organization gives Indy tax payments of 14 million per year (Taxes would be 40% on income less the 12 million they give the team per year). The city/state would get a positive return of 125+ million dollars on their initial investment during that locked in 20-year period.

If those numbers are incorrect then jump on'em.
5 posted on 10/21/2002 2:00:15 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: Rodney King
"why should the government be in the investing business?"

Governments have been in the investing business forever and a day. Dont pretend that drawing a line here is holding the line. If you want to kill all state and local government investments then cool....but if not....then dont have a problem with government investment in this case.

Especially if it is local government.

6 posted on 10/21/2002 2:04:08 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: Rodney King
"Why should non-football fans be forced to subsidize football?"

Welllllll, why should non-PBS fans be forced to subsidize PBS, or Museums, or Orchestras, or NOW or Planned Parenthood, or a zillion other special interests groups which are subsidized by the Govt. In this one instance I will accept that I am being hypocritical - if my tax dollars have to subsidize all that other c*ap then I'd like to see some of my taxes go to subsidize something I really like, like the Indianapolis Colts. I am one of those who pull every govt wagon known to creation, in this one instance I would like to get a chance to ride the wagon.

7 posted on 10/21/2002 2:11:54 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: VaBthang4
If the city invests 200 million dollars in a stadium today –and in the process locks the team in Indy for the next 20 years – (Market interest rate we'll say is 6%) the Colts Organization gives Indy tax payments of 14 million per year (Taxes would be 40% on income less the 12 million they give the team per year). The city/state would get a positive return of 125+ million dollars on their initial investment during that locked in 20-year period.

Sure. They are silly. If the market interest rate is 6%, then Indy can simply invest the money at the market interest rate for a guaranteed 6%, and not have the risk associated with the football stadium. So, the real positive return of choosing this investment is only 2 million per year, over 20 years. Not the full 14. Also, I am not sure where the 14 comes from, is that what they generate now? Anyway, there is risk to that. The team could go out of business.

8 posted on 10/21/2002 2:14:16 PM PDT by Rodney King
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To: VaBthang4
Governments have been in the investing business forever and a day. Dont pretend that drawing a line here is holding the line. If you want to kill all state and local government investments then cool....but if not....then dont have a problem with government investment in this case.

I have a problem with government "investing" on our behlaf everywhere and always. I will be against it here, and everywhere else.

9 posted on 10/21/2002 2:15:17 PM PDT by Rodney King
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To: joebuck
Welllllll, why should non-PBS fans be forced to subsidize PBS, or Museums, or Orchestras, or NOW or Planned Parenthood, or a zillion other special interests groups which are subsidized by the Govt. In this one instance I will accept that I am being hypocritical - if my tax dollars have to subsidize all that other c*ap then I'd like to see some of my taxes go to subsidize something I really like, like the Indianapolis Colts. I am one of those who pull every govt wagon known to creation, in this one instance I would like to get a chance to ride the wagon.

Fair enough, but look at it this way: This is supposed to be some kind of terrific investment. Wouldn't you rather have the team float a bond that you can purchase part of (and get the resultant return on) then have the government make the investment? If the government does it and there is a loss you will share in the loss. If the return is positive, a bunch of jackass bureaucrats will get raises.

10 posted on 10/21/2002 2:17:24 PM PDT by Rodney King
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To: VaBthang4
Also, I would like your opinion as to why the team doesn't just float a bond so that you can take part of this great investment. Of course, the only reason why you and others would not do so is if there risk is such that it is not a great investment, in which case your 14 million of guaranteed tax payments are not as guaranteed as you think.
11 posted on 10/21/2002 2:18:45 PM PDT by Rodney King
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To: Rodney King
"I have a problem with government "investing" on our behlaf everywhere and always."

Then you my friend have no concept of reality.

12 posted on 10/21/2002 2:35:34 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: Rodney King
"If the government does it and there is a loss you will share in the loss. If the return is positive, a bunch of jackass bureaucrats will get raises."

Short of nuclear holocaust the return would be positive...and short of nuclear holocaust, the numbers in the original post are legit. Stop being a contrarian...government isnt full of bureaucrats.

I cant tell if you have a problem with the method or the necessity of local government involvment. To push the tax payers out of the loop is to also push them out of the payoff that would come from having a new stadium [Exactly like what happened with the RCA dome]...the examples are endless...and short of the sky falling...are guaranteed.

People who freeze in place because of fears [real or imagined] arent the people to be receiving counsel from.

Money isnt evil. Government isnt evil [especially local]. Business ventures arent evil, and investing isnt evil.

This nation was built on risk. The Colts came to Indianapolis on risk. The original RCA Dome was built on risk.

Risk aversion is not the answer.

13 posted on 10/21/2002 2:44:10 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: VaBthang4
Short of nuclear holocaust the return would be positive...and short of nuclear holocaust, the numbers in the original post are legit. Stop being a contrarian...government isnt full of bureaucrats.

You are totally avoiding the point. If the return will be positive, then why can't they raise the money in the private markets? Also, as for your numbers. As I said, the real economic return is 2 million per year, over 20 years. Not your 100+ million.

14 posted on 10/21/2002 3:03:29 PM PDT by Rodney King
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To: VaBthang4
People who freeze in place because of fears [real or imagined] arent the people to be receiving counsel from. Money isnt evil. Government isnt evil [especially local]. Business ventures arent evil, and investing isnt evil. This nation was built on risk. The Colts came to Indianapolis on risk. The original RCA Dome was built on risk. Risk aversion is not the answer.

That's all off point. Surely you would agree that one must analyze the cost/benefits/risk of any investment and not just go willy-nilly into any investment because its the manly thing to do. I am not risk adverse. Hell, I used to invest in distressed debt for a living. However, all investments need to be analyzed. That the team will not go to the private markets for the money is a sure sign that it is not a good investment.

15 posted on 10/21/2002 3:05:37 PM PDT by Rodney King
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To: VaBthang4
Now that I have survived the overdose of adjectives and adverbs, let's look at the raw data.......
 


 
Seldom mentioned by those holding the microphones or taking the polls are the Baskets of Hope program, Peyton Manning's handoff for hunger, the Edgerrin James Foundation, the Peyback Foundation, the Meadows Foundation, the Colts geography website, or the Just Kickin'it Fund. By no means an exhaustive listing of the honorable endeavors to give back to the community by Colts Players and Coaches.
 
Ok, just how much money is kicked into these 'honorable' endeavors?  I'll bet it's WAY less than the amount we subsidize that group of Sweaty Boys.
 

After all the transactions have taken place, the city coffers have gained over ten million dollars since Mayor Hudnut brought the team to town. 10 million dollars in 18 years. Just for having your name in front of the team.

Oh boy!!!   What a deal!!  NOT!! we subsidize that group of Sweaty Boys more than that EACH YEAR!!!!


Also the city has pocketed over 100 million dollars since 1996 by hosting its Circle City Classic inside the RCA dome. 

HMmmmm...  $100,000,000 / 6 years = $16,000,000 a year

Divide that by 50,000 seats and ya get $333 per seat.   OUCH!

I wondered why I had never gone to see one of those 'games'.


Judging by the blatant atmosphere of opposition by the Star's editorial staff, I should've checked words like Money Hungry, Greedy; Slick, Enron, Martha Stewart or Bin Laden. God only knows how many stories Star writers have produced linking the Colts Organization and Jim Irsay Jr. to anyone of those.

Yeah..... who knows?


What encumbered taxpayer would be opposed to 125+ million dollars of pure tax revenue rolling into government coffers and alleviating their own tax burden? Show me the dawdling voter who doesn't get off the fence with vigorous zeal after looking at those numbers.

Too bad it ain't true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'm the one coughing up taxes to subsidize this thing.  If this were true, the Stadium Tax would be long gone.  It isn't true.


You get the feeling that the Star has anti-Colts articles lined up like jetliners in queue waiting to take off at a controller's command.

No, I don't. 


16 posted on 10/21/2002 3:35:20 PM PDT by Elsie
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To: VaBthang4
To heck with the colts, they already have a place to place baseball. I keep asking for a mountain to snowboard down, and the mayor just ignores me.
17 posted on 10/21/2002 4:28:54 PM PDT by Dakmar
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To: VaBthang4
Since I live in Seattle, I find this amusing.

Misery loves company.

18 posted on 10/21/2002 4:36:33 PM PDT by Psycho_Bunny
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To: Elsie
"Oh boy!!! What a deal!! NOT!! we subsidize that group of Sweaty Boys more than that EACH YEAR!!!!"

The City has paid the colts 93 million dollars since it came to Indianapolis...the Colts have paid the city over 107 million since coming to Indianapolis.

19 posted on 10/21/2002 5:23:08 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: Rodney King
I have only offered 200 million in investments from the city...the stadium will probably cost twice as much...the other half would indeed be made up by Private Business'.

In the end the city will put up the money....they either do it directly by helping to build the stadium [and also recieve the benefits it will bring]...or they will end up screwing the taxpayers by directly subsidizing the colts payroll. I think any honest person would choose the former.

Regardless, the scenario is just that....a scenario....not the position taken by the Colts Organization.

Please...save the oblique remarks about not getting the point...I am sinply not following you down your line.
20 posted on 10/21/2002 5:28:45 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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