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To: billbears
Being the son of Joseph, assuming that to be THE Joseph, does not prove what you want to prove, i.e. that Mary had other children.

The article itself says that there would have been no more than twenty men named James whose fathers would have been Josephs and who had brithers named Jesus. Right there, you have to wonder about the article. On what possible evidence could one conclude those numerical assertions without documentary evidence which would have been much more compelling than: We found an ossuary lid and it says.......

Next, note that the mystery person who claims to own this claimed artifact which has not been viewed in public just did not know its significance, is too modest and privacy loving to allow his identity to be public and does not plan to let us see the presumed artifact or whatever it is. It will be his or her little secret and we will just have to trust him or her. This is not a very reliable way to present evidence.

The rest of this post is based upon what is entirely possible to be the false assumption that the unseen artifact actually exists and is as described.

Next, note that the ossuary lid was found in Israel. St. James the Greater is buried at Santiago de Compostella in Spain. He was martyred not by stoning but by being put to the sword by Herod Agrippa I (Acts, xii, 2), in 44 AD and not in 63 AD as indicated for the fellow whose lid this may be. The martyrdom of St. James the Greater is the only martyrdom of one of the twelve apostles recorded in the New Testament.

St. James the Greater was the brother of St. John the Evangelist. See also Matthew x, 2, and Luke vi, 14, and Acts i, 13. Collectively, they were known as "Boanerges" or "the sons of thunder" and are sons of Zebedee not Joseph, not Mary (Mark iii, 17) and were, along with Peter and Andrew, the first four apostles called by Christ. The remains were brought to Spain and are no longer buried in Israel.

St. James the Lesser was a son of Alphaeus and another Mary who was at the tomb (Mark xv, 40, xvi, 1; and Matthew xxvii, 56). There is improbable legend that he was martyred at Persia or that he was "the brother of the Lord" when he was more likely a cousin whose parents were Alphaeus and that other Mary.

There was yet a third James who wrote the Epistle of James and died in 62 A.D., known as James "the Just" who was apparently a step-brother of Christ by a previous marriage of Joseph or was actually St. James the Less, son of Alpheus and a Mary not the mother of Christ but related to her, according to St. Jerome. There is apparently some dispute as to the manner of death, some arguing that he was stoned and some that he was thrown from an upper story of a building. While James "the Just" may possibly have been the person whose ossuary lid has been found, it simply begs the question as to the relationship to Mary, the Mother of Jesus. As to that question, this may be an interesting artifact to the "reformed" but it proves nothing but that a man whose father was Joseph and had a brother named Jesus is said to have been buried in the box.

How many Jameses were there in Jerusalem at the time? If Jesus Christ's inner circle is any representative sample, the place must have been crawling with them.

Finally, as I understand it from the discovery a few years ago of the ossuary of Caiaphas (one of the chief villains of the Passion) it was the custom not just to bury the deceased in such a box but his entire family. Each corpse was first laid out to rot the flesh from the bones, on a shelf, and then the bones were added to the box. If James "the Just" had no wife and no children, they would not have been buried with him since they did not exist. On the other hand, why were not the bones of the purported or putative parents of this important man (if they were Joseph and Mary as suggested) buried in that ossuary as well? He was, after all, said to have assumed leadership of the Church at Jerusalem after St. James the Greater was martyred and Peter had left Jerusalem.

I am afraid that the term "brother" in this context is more akin to the black saying: "Keep the faith, brother." or "Brothers and sisters, we are gathered here today...." than to RFK was JFK's brother.

Some kind of fantasy though.

22 posted on 10/21/2002 10:55:04 AM PDT by BlackElk
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To: BlackElk
Well as I surmised above I don't think it is the box of THE James. As others have pointed out, it doesn't pass the sniff test
26 posted on 10/21/2002 11:01:56 AM PDT by billbears
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To: BlackElk
Good summary. The Catholic position is that Mary was "ever Virgin," and of course that there was only one miraculous virgin birth, that of Jesus. The usual Catholic opinion is that Jesus had no brothers or step-brothers; but that is not, like Mary's virginity, an article of faith. It's conceivable (though sheer speculation and I think unlikely) that Joseph had sons from an earlier marriage.

As one response notes, the usual Catholic position is that the word often translated as "brother" simply means a close relation, such as a cousin. In fact this is one of the few instances where the translators of the RSV Bible agreed to differ. The Protestant version has "brothers" and the Catholic version "brethren."

In any case, there's no way this "find" can be proved, one way or the other. Assuming that the artifact is genuine, there were numerous people with these three names in Jerusalem. Early traditions agree that James did not die in Israel. Those traditions can be questioned, of course, but they are still the best evidence we have.
30 posted on 10/21/2002 12:07:10 PM PDT by Cicero
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