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To: OLD REGGIE
No one esle was up to the task so I had to find an explanation of Matthew 1:25 myself, so here goes...

The same must be said of the expression, "and he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son" (Matthew 1:25); the Evangelist tells us what did not happen before the birth of Jesus, without suggesting that it happened after his birth.

Very weak defense.

Case 1: The verse contains "He knew her". QED. If you want to expand, you can say it actually says "He knew her not till" which is different. And I say you can not interpret this to mean "He knew her not while". There is a different between "till" and "while".

Case 2: There is a difference between past tense and future tense. Consider the following two statements.

You can not go swimming until you wait 30 minutes after you finish eating.

He did not go swimming until he waited 30 minutes after he finished eathing.

In the future tense, the use of until does not imply an action. In the past tense, the use of until does imply that action.

136 posted on 10/21/2002 12:55:49 PM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: Tao Yin
Or another explanation, to refute Matthew 1:25, which I see as arguing with words, is printed below. But the fact of the matter is that scripture said a virgin will give birth. So it is very important that Mary and Joseph did not have relations while Mary was pregnant. If Mary was ever virgin, wouldn't it be easier to say that Joseph never knew Mary? Because if Mary is ever virgin what is so special about Mary and Joseph not having relations while Mary was pregnant?

Anyway, the arguement of words follows...

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her "not until ("heos", in Greek)" she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because "not until" does not mean "did not...until after." "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove "not until" means "not up to the point that":

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you "until the end of the world." This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert "up to the point of his manifestation to Israel." Not John "was in the desert until after" his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow "up to the point that" she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, "take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool." Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

1 Tim. 4:13 - "up to the point that I come," attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing "until after" I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth "up to the point that" [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won't leave Jacob "up to the point that" he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but "up to the point of today" no one knows Moses' burial place. This does not mean that "they did not know place until today."

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul's daughter Micah was childless "up to the point" [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 - not one was slain "up to the point that" they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace.

146 posted on 10/21/2002 1:14:04 PM PDT by Tao Yin
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