FLIGHT 587---Shame, Shame

USRead ^ | 10/17/02 | Victor Trombettas

[PeoplesRepublicOfWashington]

Al Qaeda, unlike the more familiar Palestinia terrorist groups, isn't in the habit of taking credit for their deeds.

But they weren't shy about taking credit for 9/11/01, the Cole, the previous attempt on the WTC, etc.

[First_Salute]

Bump.

[copycat]

Then why didn't the terrorists take credit for the results?

Terrorists have not taken credit for any of the recent acts. Why do you think, say, for the French tanker explo that W said "We believe it's Al Queda." There was no claim of credit. THey don't want publicity anymore, they want to KILL AMERICANS. A thinking person could not possibly continue to believe that since no-one took credit, it was not terrorism.

PS ... Remember when they were saying Richard Reid was not Al Queda...months later they let it out slowly that indeed he was.

[copycat]

I, like you, am fairly certain that it was a bomb that took down that plane. But do you think a bomb that could fit into the sole of a shoe could generate enough explosive power to take down a jumbo jet?

Eyewitnesses say there were TWO explosions. The first, the shoe bomb, was detonated at floor level just above the fuel tank which sits near the right wing, The second, bigger explosion, was the fuel tank.

The fuel tank explosion, in my theory, caused a loss of structure to the right wing... I believe it folded back along the fuselage.

The loss of drag on the right side of the plane caused it to "lurch to the left", as revealed by flight data. (BTW, the two explosions were labeled as "shudders" and are heard on the CVR.) This violent lurch to the left, or "fishtail", caused the plane to turn sideways to the wind vector, the sidewards air pressure snapping off the composite tail, which snapped cleanly and was the first piece to fall toward earth.

The plane subsequently broke up...the heavy engines shearing their mounts in the twisting 300 mph wind forces.

[copycat]

The ONLY explanation for al these large surfaces coming off is air load, which supports the position the plane was out of control BEFORE it came apart.

Hello, my friend. See my previous for a discussion of how the wind forces took out various parts of the plane in the proper order.

This story lives on like a splinter in your hand, because it has never been satisfactorily explained.

[copycat]

The composite materials around the root fasteners holding the vertical stabilizer to the airframe, were at various frequencies ... vibrating to failure.

If composite tails fail from "vibrations", we could expect more of these "failures", couldn't we.

In fact, the tail was fine...but was engineered only to take wind force from the front...not the side.

Please do not attempt to discount the TWO EXPLOSIONS seen by many witnesses. Try to factor into your anaylsis how these two EXPLOSIONS could have affected the tail.

IMHO, the explosions caused the plane to "fishtail" (if you read the eyewintess reports, you will find data which supports this...one winteness said the wings were dipping up and down.) The fishtail simply caused massive air forces to be directed at the tail from the side, leading to failure and a clean shearing of the mounting bolts.

[ladyinred]

Uh, that's right wing OF THE PLANE.

LOL So glad you clarified that! Can't be too careful these days when using those two words!

[copycat]

On Fox 5 NY a man named Kenneth Brown said this to Rosanna ? and John ?

John: Ken, you there?

Ken, yes yes I am.

John: Can you tell us what you saw Ken?

Ken: Alright, I was out on the boat about a hundred twentieth a hundred nineteenth st when un we stopped the boat cause we have an engine..yah know the engine was making weird sounds, so we stopped the boat and we were back by the engine and I heard a popping sound...not like a a a I cant even say it was an explosion, it was more like a pop and then like a whishing sound and then part of the wing came off.

John:Where was the plane at that moment?

Ken: Right over the bay. Right over the bay

John So is it almost right above you?

Ken: Yes, kinda to the north of us, cause we where more to the east channel drive at that time, on that side of Jamaica Bay and um the pieces that came off the wing...flew into the um tail and tore the tail off and as soon as that happened the plane went belly up towards us and towards the east and it just dove straight down, like the uhh the belly of the plane actually turned toward the south and it went straight down into the ground.

John: So you saw some big pieces of this plane come off...

Ken:We was the first ones on the scene and then the police boat came and we helped them pick up parts of the boat..uh..parts a the plane. We actually took up the blue A off of the tail we put that in the boat. Ummm the picture of the....another piece of the whole top of the tail with the flag on it was laying in shallow water. We took up allot of pieces of the boat...the plane we put it on the boat and took them in to the police boat an helped load em onto the police boat but a a the engine

Rosannabreaks in: Well it sounds like you have some crucial information Ken...

His voice rising Ken says: See the engine...everybody keeps saying the engine fell off...if it fell off it fell off on the way down....

John:U Huh

Ken: That plane as soon as its tail came off it just bellied up and went straight down, so yah know people saying yah know the engine came off, but that came off after the fact. Now as far as explosion, something was happening over the bay, something made the wing shatter and took of the tail. and uh the way I seen it , it still looked like it had its engines on as it was going down.

John: Have you spoken to anyone there uh Ken have you talked to any members of the..

Ken Yeh a yeh police I gave the police a guy in a police boat my name and all that and when I was helping em with ya know the parts of the plane

Woman Ken you sound very shacking up , I'm sure this has..

Ken: I'm still shacking, its a its just a terrible sight. Ya know its something ya see on a movie Ya know how the plane..ya just just knew it..that it wouldn't, as it was going down I was saying hit the ocean hit the ocean thinking ya know maybe it cleared, its only 4 blocks wide but the plane just turned over and came straight down. It was..its a sight to see..it was ya know stunned me

Woman Were you able to keep your composure and think clearly at that point?

Ken: Yes, actually actually the things was starting to fly down toward the boat so we backed up a little bit toward the the trestles the A train trestle and then we came back to see if they was any...ah cause at one time I thought I could see a seat but I wasn't even sure, Nothing heavy came down, everything floated down

Woman: Do you think you got everything that was in the water?

Ken Mostly everything that was floating yah. Cause a the police boat came like the within 5 minutes..3 minutes maybe but that plane was gone in 6 seconds, when I heard the popping sound and seen the flames seen the uh wing hit the back tail an that came off it couldn't a been more than 3 seconds for it was down

John: So your saying the wing came off and hit the tail?

Ken: Parts yes...the whole section of the tail was what we recovered. The A the little flag on the top of the tail section that whole section, like the 30 foot top of that was stuck in the sand...in the water about 5 feet of water but there was other pieces floating around..as a matter of fact I took the blue A and we pulled that part on the boat and brought it over to the police boat. They was asking for our help then allot of boats came by allot of police boats

John:Nick your sitting hearing what Ken is saying that if any any questions for him? Nick Well um it sounds like Ken is your describing is a again that something exploded uh to cause these pieces of the wing to come out. Is that what you sug..

Ken: Exactly something happened to that wing that sent pieces of it back to the tail.

John was it the left wing or the right wing Ken do ya know?

Ken ahh see now like my friend..well.. a it bellied up to me and a when it bellied up to the east it a looked like the right wing cause the left wing still looked intact to me. It looked like the right wing had come off..or part of it

John: well that would fit with what the

(over talk..engine..saying..?)Nick: Unnn but again Ken Kinda saying the engine fell off after the fact but still potentially the engine exploding could could cause pieces of the engine to fly I mean what may have happened was a a series of events where pieces if the engine actually flew back and struck the tail or even that pieces of the engine and the wing at the same time so a but a Kens observations of the tail is a very interesting clue

John Do you live around there Ken?

Ken Yes, I live in Hamilton beach right off Jamaica Bay and a thats the whole thing..That plane would have went over Rockaway cause it was still like level until the tail came off and then it just bellied up and spun around and came straight down uh otherwise it would..that tail..as soon as it shattered thats when the plane lost everything

Nick: Now Ken did you see actual flames coming out of an engine that was..?

Ken: There was flames on the belly of the plane..I don't know weather it was the engine or ya know, but the plane bellied up towards us as it was going down and flames in the a..in that vicinity of the engines or whatever like underneath the plane

Well Ken we a thank you for your time

Ken: No Problem

[Non-Sequitur]

I made mistakes on my job five years ago too. But I learned from them and I don't make the same mistakes today. Why should the co-pilot in question be different?

[NY.SS-Bar9]

Anyone know the V speeds for a 300 are?

Would be interesting to know it they were anywhere near maneuvering speed.

[copycat]

Jet "exploded into pieces"
Feds Downplay Flt. 587 Explosion Reports

[copycat]

Ethan Moses , "It was in a climbing position and when I looked up I saw fire on the left side of the engine," he told CNN.

The wing appeared to separate from the rest of the plane, which veered to the left and then plunged into a nose dive, he said.

"It was travelling to the left slightly and then it just nose dived straight down," Mr Moses said, adding that fire spread on the ground, moving from house to house within seconds.

THE WING WENT FIRST.

[copycat]

John: Can you tell us what you saw Ken?

Ken: Alright, I was out on the boat about a hundred twentieth a hundred nineteenth st when un we stopped the boat cause we have an engine..yah know the engine was making weird sounds, so we stopped the boat and we were back by the engine and I heard a popping sound...not like a a a I cant even say it was an explosion, it was more like a pop and then like a whishing sound and then part of the wing came off.

THE WING WENT FIRST.

[copycat]

And what nearly every witness to Flt. 587's ascent over Jamaica Bay said they saw was an explosion and/or a fire, something not likely cause by "wind turbulence."

CNN's Zahn reported that morning, "We got five eyewitnesses to describe what they saw as an explosion coming, most of them believed from the right wing."

On WABC Radio in New York, vivid accounts of a midair explosion poured in from callers who saw Flt. 587 from both sides of Jamaica Bay.

"I saw an enormous flash where the wing meets the plane," a woman who was out walking her dog told host John Gambling. "I don't know if it was fire or an explosion. It appeared that debris fell from the left side [of the plane]."

Another eyewitness who called into the radio station said, "The right wing seemed to catch fire and explode. The wing was on fire with a trail of smoke behind it."

"I saw the plane going across Jamaica Bay," a third witness told WABC. "It was trying to ascend and then it just exploded."

[copycat]

"I saw an enormous flash where the wing meets the plane," a woman who was out walking her dog told host John Gambling. "I don't know if it was fire or an explosion. It appeared that debris fell from the left side [of the plane]."

Please answer a question, if you would. IF the right wing failed, and WHEN the plane then spun counter-clockwise, and WHEN a fishtailing plane experienced heavy wind forces from the right, on which side would the sheared tail fall?

[Taxman]

Bomb, no question about it.

It is for damn sure that this aircraft did not crash due to structural failure of the vertical stabilizer induced by wake turbulence or pilot action!

What I don't understand is why there is such a massive cover-up still going on. If it was a terrorist bomb, say so, and let's go get the Bastards!

[And, Oh!, by the way, lets put those who are participating in the cover-up behind bars for the rest of their natural lives!]

C'mon, Feds, we are big people. We can take the truth!

[ladyinred]

I remember these reports well, as I was glued to the news channels that day since it was so soon after 911. I was afraid it was terrorism, as were most of us I am sure.
I also remember that almost within a few minutes of the reports of the crash, the media was stating that it was NOT terrorism related.

[copycat]

What I don't understand is why there is such a massive cover-up still going on. If it was a terrorist bomb, say so, and let's go get the Bastards!

Good point. I began calling for them to admit it when Richard Reid was caught.

If you couple this with the hesitancy of Fedgov to postulate that the MD sniper is Al Queda, you have a real pattern of keeping some info from the American people.

But then we all know that is happening...

There are some things I believe Fedgov SHOULD keep from the public, so I.m not that up in arms over this...I just want to find the truth. However, now they can never admit that they covered the explosions up, or else it would shed doubt on their present efforts.

[Incorrigible]

Paging Dr. _Jim. Paging Dr. _Jim.

[copycat]

I also remember that almost within a few minutes of the reports of the crash, the media was stating that it was NOT terrorism related.

You're right...they were saying "There is NO evidence of terrorism..." BEFORE they had collected any of the evidence. They originally explained the explosions as an engine failure.