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To: MrLeRoy
"Who is a majority to decide how much freedom any adult can "handle"?

Sounds a lot better than a small body of select individuals like the supreme court.Once again I respect your quest for freedoms.I'm sure you have a basis for your feelings that the constitution entitles us to do drugs.I agree the constitution supposedly provides us protections against unreasonable search and seizure.Convince me-I'm listening and I'm willing to learn something if you can offer it.I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything.

"If a simple majority thinks you drink too much, should we decide you can't "handle" the freedom to choose how much to drink?"

Laws exist in virtually every state and municipality that prohibit public drunkedness,DUII,and drinking in public.Sometimes a line must be drawn,would you not agree this is for good reason sometimes? I don't see a whole lot of citizen uprisings against these statutes.Why?

"Whereas instinct and intuitions are unbiased? Good grief."

Never said they were unbiased.I claim common sense.Reasonability and prudency are reflected in my instincts I would hope(although you will refute that I'm sure-feel free).

"We have no authority to restrict the freedoms of adults because of POSSIBLE infringements."

Who is we? Supreme court,vote of American people,city councils,state goverment,elected officials? Cite constitutional provisions-I am listening with an open mind-honestly.......

"I have facts and logic, you have intuition and personal feelings. Which one of us sounds more like a liberal?"

Conservatives do generally argue with sound facts but in this particular case I feel in spite of the information you cite,somehow you end up touting the same line as many dyed in the wool liberals on drug legalization.I am not accusing you of being a liberal,it's obvious your beliefs are rooted in achieving personal libertys.Kudos on that aspect of your arguments.

"Alcohol can kill the user in a single evening."

Good point-my obvious reply would be narcotics can kill you in a single minute.Different animal all together.

"Would you personally be willing to operate the first Heroin store yourself?

"Yes (although I don't think I'm cut out for retail)."

Yeah I hate retail too.Used to own my own music store and always felt cooped up.You can hire a bunch of Pakistanis cheap though.Seriously though,after the first 14 year old girl OD's on your good,pure dope,tell me what you will tell her mother when she comes in to let you know the dope you sold to John ended up in Jill's body.Even though you are just like an alcohol store and can't control where it all goes,will you feel good about selling your product?

"Because you're driving on public roads. That officer has no right to stop you driving drunk on your own property."

What difference does that make by your logic-I'm not harming anyone,isn't that a victimless crime until I do harm people or property?

"Wanting more and more" is not what causes most ODs. How often do prescription drug addicts have ODs?"

Didn't you cite facts that pointed out aspirin causes more OD's than narcotics? OD's are often caused by addicts not knowing the actual potency of their poisons.But they also happen because an addict feels like going a little bit further,doing just a little bit more will get them higher.Tolerance sets in and it's hard to know how fast.This is why I favor a system of registered addicts being able to access enough to maintain at one time,and no more-that would help prevent OD's.I know this logic does not favor complete freedom,but I feel it is more realistic.

"Then why don't you support it? Alcohol has destroyed many lives."

Chuckling-Because I am biased admittedly,I enjoy a beer now and again.My real response would be that I think alcohol and narcotics are completely different animals. I don't fear alcoholic beverage dealers to the degree I fear crack dealers.

Once again,thanks for the debate.I know this is taking your freep time up,and I've enjoyed it.
















118 posted on 11/13/2002 7:38:03 PM PST by Rocksalt
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To: Rocksalt
"Who is a majority to decide how much freedom any adult can "handle"?

Sounds a lot better than a small body of select individuals like the supreme court.

But much worse than letting adults decide for themselves. (Why did you drag in this red herring--when did I ever support letting the Supreme Court decide how much freedom any adult can "handle"?)

I'm sure you have a basis for your feelings that the constitution entitles us to do drugs.

The Constitution grants the federal government no authority over the intrastate making, distributing, selling, buying, or using of drugs.

"If a simple majority thinks you drink too much, should we decide you can't "handle" the freedom to choose how much to drink?"

Laws exist in virtually every state and municipality that prohibit public drunkedness,DUII,and drinking in public.

The public gets to say what happens on its property. If a simple majority thinks you drink too much at home, should we decide you can't "handle" the freedom to choose how much to drink at home?

"Whereas instinct and intuitions are unbiased? Good grief."

Never said they were unbiased.

Then there is no support for your claim that "Sometimes instinct and intuitions turn out to be more meaningful than scientific findings."

"We have no authority to restrict the freedoms of adults because of POSSIBLE infringements."

Who is we? Supreme court,vote of American people,city councils,state goverment,elected officials?

All of the above.

Cite constitutional provisions-

The Constitution grants the federal government no authority to restrict the freedoms of adults because of POSSIBLE infringements. As for the rest, it's fundamental ethics---you don't punish someone for what they MIGHT do.

"I have facts and logic, you have intuition and personal feelings. Which one of us sounds more like a liberal?"

Conservatives do generally argue with sound facts

And the sound facts do not support restricting adults' freedom to use drugs.

but in this particular case I feel in spite of the information you cite,somehow you end up touting the same line as many dyed in the wool liberals on drug legalization.

So what? Should I stop wearing pants because liberals wear them?

"Alcohol can kill the user in a single evening."

Good point-my obvious reply would be narcotics can kill you in a single minute.Different animal all together.

No, that does NOT make them "different altogether." Slow-acting poisons and fast-acting poisons are both poisons.

"Would you personally be willing to operate the first Heroin store yourself?

"Yes (although I don't think I'm cut out for retail)."

after the first 14 year old girl OD's on your good,pure dope,tell me what you will tell her mother when she comes in to let you know the dope you sold to John ended up in Jill's body.Even though you are just like an alcohol store and can't control where it all goes,will you feel good about selling your product?

How would I feel about selling John a bottle of booze that killed Jill? How would I feel about selling John a kitchen knife that killed Jill? What does any of that have to do with whether the product should be legal?

"Because you're driving on public roads. That officer has no right to stop you driving drunk on your own property."

What difference does that make

The public gets to say what happens on its property, just like I get to say what happens on my property.

"Wanting more and more" is not what causes most ODs. How often do prescription drug addicts have ODs?"

Didn't you cite facts that pointed out aspirin causes more OD's than narcotics?

No---and I doubt that's true on a per-user basis.

Tolerance sets in and it's hard to know how fast.

That's utter nonsense---tolerance does not grow appreciably during the course of a single drug-use episode, but builds over multiple episodes.

"Then why don't you support it? Alcohol has destroyed many lives."

Chuckling-Because I am biased admittedly,I enjoy a beer now and again.

I'd applaud your honesty---but I'm too disgusted by your chuckling over your supporting the caging of non-rights-violating adults on the basis of your biases.

My real response would be that I think alcohol and narcotics are completely different animals.

You have yet to produce evidence that supports that claim.

120 posted on 11/14/2002 7:19:57 AM PST by MrLeRoy
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