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To: Destro
"Read it again. The by line says it is an AFP story. The article at Rense.com is posted without alteration of the original."

My apologies. It's just that Rense.com isn't exactly what I'd consider a reliable source and it has a history of "cutting and pasting" articles to support the tin foil theory of the week.

Regarding the article itself, Oplan Bojinka (like current al-Qaeda plots to use sarin or cyanide to attack Western interests) was dismissed largely because it was thwarted. When Ramzi Yousef was finally apprehended, he refused to divulge who he worked for or how he obtained the funds to carry out his attacks (which may explain why al-Qaeda has such a high regard for him and has even taken hostages in an effort to secure his release). There was some speculation at the time that he might have been an Iraqi intelligence agent, though that line of thought collapsed after 1998 when it was learned that he was in fact an operations commander for al-Qaeda.

Additionally, the various pieces of information about planes being used as giant missiles has been around since at least 1994, when members of the GIA (another al-Qaeda affiliate) tried to crash a jetliner into the heart of downtown Paris. As I said, hindsight is always 20-20.

I also don't understand the signifigance of the fact that Bojinka is a Serbo-Croat word that means "explosion." As I said, Yousef spoke any number of languages and was very much a worthy successor to Carlos the Jackal as far as Islamic terrorism is concerned. He could have just as easily picked out an Urdu, Farsi, or Arabic term for the operation, as he spoke those languages as well.

"There is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant nor is their such a thing as genocide-lite."

The term refers to basically a little bit of genocide carried out on a small-scale. The Laskar Jihad (another al-Qaeda affiliate) did the same in East Timor after the nation declared independence. While it isn't anywhere on the scale of what happened in Rwanda or in Europe under Nazi rule, that doesn't make it any less wicked. And the same holds for the Muslim atrocities.

"Your other assertions are just that, observations based on how you see the world (which is fine, so are mine). I at least try to back up my thesis with checkable references."

My assertions are based on what I consider to be reasonably credible reports from mainstream and alternative news media as well as a basic understanding that when speaking in terms of an ethnic or religious group there is no good guy/bad guy distinction when it comes to the Balkans. Had the Serbs been allowed to continue unopposed I have no doubt they would have engaged in a great deal of "ethnic cleansing" before the day was over. We stopped the Serbs, but now we have the twin evils of Albanian hyper-nationalism and al-Qaeda to deal with in the Balkans. The place isn't called the powder keg of Europe for nothing.

Regarding the Chetniks (and my knowledge is quite limited in this regard), my understanding was that they, like most European communist groups, played nice with the Nazis and stayed quiet until after the Axis invasion of the USSR began, at which point they were called to arms by their Comintern masters.
40 posted on 10/07/2002 9:58:20 PM PDT by Angelus Errare
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To: Angelus Errare
This is not meant as a flame to you, but I am sorry to say you offer excuses rather than explanations.

I am not a Yugoslav nor do I think Milosevic belongs anywhere but behind bars (Serbian ones).

Saying that, the Serbs I feel were justified in both seeking to keep Yugoslavia whole and once that failed then to trying to join their Serbian enclaves to Serbia when it came to some parts of Croatia and Bosnia. At least those areas should have been made autonomous zones with Croatia and Bosnia as a way to ease the fear that animated the Serbs.

48 posted on 10/08/2002 5:51:53 PM PDT by Destro
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To: Angelus Errare
You know damned little authoritative history. The history you are spouting is properly called "deterministic history" or picking pieces to support your incorrect premises.
53 posted on 10/08/2002 6:46:30 PM PDT by chemainus
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To: Angelus Errare; Tamodaleko; Destro
Bojinka is a Serbo-Croat word that means "explosion."

I am not familiar with that word. Maybe it means something in the Croation "neospeak." I have never encountered such a word in Serbian.

Chetniks -- Tropoljac gives correct information, but out of context and with a small twist to it. Some chetniks collaborated initially, others only under extreme duress. Reasons for collaboration are numerous -- personal vendettas, warlord mentality, usury, bribery, "pragmatism," exchange of prisoners, bartering, you name it.

But there is an essential difference between chetnik collaboration ustasha cooperation. The chetniks were driven either by greed, opportunism or dire need; ustasha were Nazi allies.

The chetniks of Ravna Gora, were the official Yugoslav Royal Army in fatherland; their commander, Gen. Drazha Mihailovich was Yugoslavia's Defense Minister in office. Yugoslavia's official policy was to resist German occupation but not to cause excesisve civilian causalities. The official policy called for uneasy truce -- Germans controlling cities; chetniks the countryside. German reprisals policy was harsh: 100 executed hostages for each German soldier killed, and 50 executed hostages for each wounded solider. It was a price in Serbian lives, chetniks were not willing to pay. They were ordered to wait for Allies to push Germans back and then go on an offensive, helping the Allies along, just as the French resistance did.

The communists, who didn't annoucne their "uprising" until Soviet Union was attacked, joined chetniks initially but insisted on attacking Germans despite the reprisals policy. The reason for that were Wehrmacht sccesses against the red Army in USSR. Stalin wanted his apparatchiks in Yugoslavia to tie down Germans with fierce resistance -- regardless of causlities, and they did. This was one of the main reasons chetniks broke up with communists -- they weren't fighting a war of liberation for the good of the people, but a revolutionary communist war for the good of Stalin. Their reckless and murderous "heroism" resulted in massacres like the one in Kraguyevats.

Germans had a warrant on Drazha's head. Croatia's Ante Pavelic was Germany's darling. Chetniks were never German allies. The Croats were. There is the essential difference, inspite of some collaboration. But there is NEVER aparallel, comparable, equitable comparison between chetniks and ustashas.

After Yalta, the Allies threw their support to Communists. This drove more and more chetniks to seek any means of survival -- including open collaboration as the only means of fighting the communists. They knew that Germans will be defeated sooner or later and the main Yugoslav enemies were pro-Soviet communists the Allies were supporting whole heartedly.

Evidence of communist collaboration with Germans was also revealed by a one time top Yugoslav communist official -- Kocha Popovich, one of rare Serb communists who came from a wealthy family. He admitted in his memoirs that, for the sake of pragmatism, negotiationgs were heald with the Nazis over bartering for supplies in exchange for prisoners, etc. And, contrary to the fairtale that Germans were their main enemy, it is clear that Tito made defeating the chetniks his primary goal. Most of the war, the communists were dodging Germans and their allies, and more often than not, running for their lives after being encircled -- eight times, and barely pulling out alaive. They were no match for the Wehrmacht; but they could and did engage chetniks on every possible occasion -- and vice versa.

54 posted on 10/08/2002 6:54:53 PM PDT by kosta50
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