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To: Weirdad
"stepping on the toes of many of us who are concerned with preserving freedom"

Name one speck of freedom you have lost since 9/11?

13 posted on 07/23/2002 10:18:32 PM PDT by Crossbow Eel
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To: Crossbow Eel; Old Fud; Ron in Acreage; Weirdad; concerned about politics; JessicaDragonet; ...
The following is a post that i had placed on a different thread a few days ago that i feel is pertinent to this discussion. I have repeated it again on another thread ...but it is my feeling it still pertains to this thread (especially due to the reference on TIPS). And let me explain: it is not an attack on GW (the reason i am saying this is that on the other thread there was this one Freeper who thought i was acting as some sort of 'Liberal conduit.' Luckily that was the only Freeper who saw it with myopic vision). It is just a personal opinion of what might happen based on what is happening (eg yesterdays Fox report that although Bush's approval ratings are still in the high 60% his percentage points for 'those who would like to see him re-elected' is in the mid-40%). Anyways here is the post:

To be totally honest with you (and i know i may be setting myself up for quite some flak here) if things continue going the way they are ('protection' prgrams from the government that are inherently anti-American, economic and fiscal snafus, etc) the chances of President Bush being re-elected become slim.

And even though right now his ratings are still very favorable one should also remember that in the heat of the Gulf War prez. George Bush the senior also had enviable ratings, but still lost to Clinton!

Although this may seem anathema to many, there is a chance history may be repeated (i.e another bush losing to another clinton).

And if you notice the Liberals and the Media have already started attacking, and to be perfectly honest with you it seems (to me) that the White House is giving them all the ammunition they need. Whatever you may think of the liberals one thing is for certain .....they are very well versed in the fine art of spin and subtle insinuations. And when the White House starts pushing programs like TIPS, which seriously sounds to me like something Nazi Germany (or to a lesser extent the USSR during the 60s) would have advocated, questions start being asked .....even by conservatives.

A good example of this is yesterday i saw Pat Roberson criticize the Bush plan of TIPS. And this is a person who during the election had organized prayers for Bush to win!

And then there are the rampant corporate scandals ...some of which implicate Bush and Cheney! You and i both know that this is simply hyperbole angled against the conservatives, but to many of the populace they see the perpetual reports on and on and on, and soon they start to believe this. And when 'normal' people start losing money there is a greater likelihood that they will be sufficiently pissed off to allow their emotions to take over the logical mind, and thus they can more readily accept the ubiquitous broadcasts condemning the Republican party.

And such things are basically acting as attritive factors, and come election date the chickens may come home to roost for us Republicans.

Actually i was watching this other broadcast yesterday, and this person was basically criticizing the war against terrorism. Basically he was making light of the initiatives Bush has taken against terrorism, and that the terrorists have already done so much they do not need to do any other thing ever! For example UBL spent basically 20 grand (or more) in training his mules to attack us on 9-11. We have spent Billions (with a B), and furthermore it has cost the economy many Billions more. And the costs are rising. Moreover there have been fundamental changes in the American percepion of life, and maybe even in our way of life. People are seriously considering having what is tantamount to civilian spies policing their blocks.

The FBI is beginning to look like it as during Hoover's terms, and shades of the FBI's Counterintelligence Program (COINTELPRO) are starting to materialize. So is the spectre of the House of Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC)

And the New York Times reported that several FBI officials had tried to push for the scraping of the Fourth Amendment since it 'hampered' their efforts and encouraged lawsuits against them.

And then there are the reports of the actions of Adolf Hitler in 1933 when he was chancellor. He invoked article 48 of the Weimar Constitution to suspend certain civil rights in times of national emergency. He later created the SS agencies and the Storm Troopers.

Obviously we know Bush does not intend to follow the path of Hitler, but the media have come upon this and it is vital ammunition for them! And as the election day comes closer you can be assured that this (as well as other national and economical issues) will begin to gain prominence, and the interesting thing is that although the White House will be completely innocent they will have a hard time proving it (and remember the first maxim of public as well as legal opinion is this : it is not what you know but what you can prove).

And then there are the statements being used by Liberals to undermine Bush ....and the other funny thing is that they make sense if looked at froma shallow perspective. For example what Benjamin Franklin said: They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Or what Justice Louis Brandeis said: The greatest danger to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.

Compare that statement with the following by AG John Ashcroft: To those that pit Americans against Immigrants, and citizens against non-citizens, my message to you is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to america's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They encourage people of good will to remain silent int he face of evil.

Both the statements say the same basic thing ....but obviously the media will print the former (and ignore the one from Ashcroft) and use it against Ashcroft and co.!

And this is why i say again unless something is done to rectify this trend come 2004 the same thing that happend to George bush the senior will happen to George Bush the son ......he will lose to a Clinton (in this case Hillary) or a Clinton clone (maybe Al 'mr internet' Gore or more probably a uber-charismatic democRat candidate who is more like Bill Klington and less like Al Bore). And the ammunition for this is coming straight from the White House.

And the next step may be for the media and liberals to state that what Bush is doing is (borrowing a term from IBME) turning the U.S.A into the U.S.S.A.

14 posted on 07/23/2002 11:02:32 PM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Crossbow Eel
Crossbow Eel, you cited this from my post above: "stepping on the toes of many of us who are concerned with preserving freedom"

Then you asked this "straw man" question:  "Name one speck of freedom you have lost since 9/11?"

Your question clearly implies that you yourself think that not "one speck" of freedom has been lost since 9/11.

I cannot believe that someone on FreeRepublic would not be able to answer this question, so I've got to presume you are being rhetorical. And of course any answer would have nothing to do with whether it is proper for the President to institute an unconstitutional Federal program that is (a) most clearly not a power enumerated in the constitution, and (b) a violation of the unalienable rights possessed by we the people, and (c) specifically forbidden by the fourth amendment.

Just cause Teamsters and Democrats like the TIPS program does not mean that Freepers should not fight it.

9/11 may be a convenient excuse for politicians to promote unconstitutional government activities, but the slide away from the free republic intended by the founding fathers toward the unconstitutional MESS we are in now is the real issue, and that slide has been going on continually for YEARS, not just since 9/11. The slide was supposed to stop when we got a 'conservative' Republican president, but it has only slowed down a little bit, and that ought to make us all very worried.

The ENTIRE POINT of FreeRepublic itself is to preserve the American Freedom we have every right to possess. The distinctive feature of our Free Republic, these United States of America, is NOT voting--even communists do that--it is that we have FIRM LIMITATIONS ON THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT. The very people who are presently advocating that the federal government usurp powers to which it has no right are politicians who have sworn oaths of office to uphold the constitution. That's disgusting.

The quotations of Ben Franklin and Justice Louis Brandeis which appear in the excellent comments of spetznaz above, bear repeating:

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

"The greatest danger to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." - Justice Louis Brandeis

The federal TIPS program ON ITS FACE is an illegal and fascist program, and that fact should be OBVIOUS to all the branches of government. It is a GROSS INSULT to us all that the idea has seen the light of day promoted by the very administration we hoped would stop this kind of thing. I object to the fact that I even have to deal with it. There are other fights to be fought, and this administration is continuing to make many non-conservative moves that are taking away from the other battles we need to be fighting.

Those of you defending the TIPS program really should re-think your position.

President Bush needs our prayers and God's help to act wisely and to recognize that which we must preserve and to have the courage and resolve not to give up essential liberty.

 

16 posted on 07/24/2002 12:20:05 PM PDT by Weirdad
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