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To: PresbyRev
I'm asking in a kind, non-hostile manner I assure you; do you have any Scriptural references you can give me??
32 posted on 07/05/2002 8:28:57 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: goldenstategirl
I'm certainly no biblical scholar, but here's what seems to be a fairly rational discussion of the subject:

http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/monthly/junia.shtml

35 posted on 07/05/2002 8:44:03 PM PDT by Gee Wally
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To: goldenstategirl
I certainly appreciate your query. I have tried to break
myself of jumping on theology/religion threads on FR b/c
so often it descends into uncharitable spectacle for
our atheist/agnostic/other friends. I am usually among the guilty. So, having indulged myself on this point, I'm going to simply leave it at the link for anyone interested.

However, the link I provided to 'Christians for Biblical
Equality' has excellent online articles that deal with
specific passages, exegesis, the hermeneutical presuppositions of both 'camps' on the issue, etc. Also,
there are well-researched, scholarly texts available for sale. Among them are: Aida Spencer Besacon's "Beyond the Curse," which is probably one of the most thoroughgoing in its Scriptural analysis of both OT and NT relevant passages.

If I'm not mistaken, the Evangelical Theological Society
either online and certainly in back issues (a list of backlisted editions of their 'Review' and articles is available) have had contributors deal with various texts
and pericopes relating to the role and ecclesial offices
of women in the New Testament/Apostolic era Church.

Blessings & Peace!


41 posted on 07/05/2002 9:58:42 PM PDT by PresbyRev
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To: goldenstategirl
Sorry for the delay - I had a tremendous week at a youth
conference and am now wading back through some old emails,
etc and getting caught back up.


Apostles were both the original twelve as well as others,
presumably those who followed Jesus and were a part of the original band or who were encountered and commissioned by
the Risen Christ. See: 1 Corinthians 15:5,7. An Apostle
was someone who had seen, been confronted by, the Risen Christ - 1 Cor. 9:1.

So, others than the Twelve were counted apostles. Barnabas, Silas, James, Adronicus. Certainly, Mary the Great or Mary Magdalene, Mary the Mother of Christ, Salome, etc. would
fit the definition of Apostle as well. They had seen Christ and they had been empowered and commissioned by the Spirit to share the gospel. (Acts 14:14; Romans 16:7; Galatians 1:19; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2:6; Matt. 28:7; Mark 16:7).


Specifically, looking at Junia whom Paul describes as prominent and a fellow apostle - Romans 16:7 - we see that Junia ia a common name, Latin, for women. It is not
a diminutive, becasue Latin diminutives were formed by lengthening not shortening, a name.


Origen and John Chrysostrom, certainly not friendly toward
women, admitted that Junian/Junia/Junias was a female.


In Epistolam ad Romanos Commentariorum 10,26; 39 Origen
took for granted that Junia was a female apostle.


John Chrysostrom wrote, "Oh! how great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle! ((Homily on the Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans 31)).


Not until Aegidus of Rome (b. 1245 - d.1316) do you find
a commentator simply assume that both Andronicus and Junia
are both men.


Certainly, there are multiple evidences in Scripture, for
those who want to sling verses back and forth, that point
toward the authoritative leadership of women in the Old and New Testament Churches.


In the Old Testament we find female prophets in Miriam, Huldah and the wife of Isaiah. See Micah 6:4; Judges 4:4
- among other passages.


Joel wrote of a time that both genders would prophesy, would proclaim, forthelling/foretelling, God's reign, Joel 2:28. Indeed, in Acts 2 we see that the Holy Spirit filled
and empowered for proclamation (preaching/teaching)
both men AND women! Also, Luke 2:36 should be of interest.


And of course, there is ample evidence that there were both
teaching elders and deacons in the New Testament era. We find such evidence in both Scripture and in Church History.
Not until the 800's do you find conciliar teaching coming
down to finally squelch the role of female leadership in the Church.


In the New Testament, specifically in Paul's injunction 'silencing' certain women, it is obvious from the context and the larger message of Paul, that he is dealing with a specific situation of women coming from Gentile/pagan backgrounds and importing various practices into the Church. The exhortation to LEARN in silence is a standard 1st Century rabbinical teaching method - learn in respect, in silence - in turn to teach. The Greek word used in 1 Corinthians 14 means quiet (the same verb is used when Paul exhorts Christians to live quiet lives - not lives of monastic silence, but quiet, dignified, self-controlled).
Both men and women are urged to learn and live in quiet/silence.


Paul always assumes women are praying and teaching in the Church. He never forbids it, rather he gives guidelines to two particular church contexts for the right execution of those duties and offices. Standards for male elders/deacons are always joined to similar standards for women. There is certainly evidence in the Pastoral Epistles and 2 John that there were female patrons, deacons, and elders - leaders of house churches and apostles. Galatians 3:28 is a fine lens
through which to view the whole of Paul's teaching. Even
in Revelation where 'Jezebel' is condemned by the Risen
Christ for false teaching, she is not condemned for
teaching(as a woman).


Again, I am not inclined to begin writing lengthy essays on FR, rather for anyone genuinely interested in the foundations in Scripture and early Church history regarding
the role of women in the Church ought to consult some of the scholarly and learned works available from Christians for Biblical Equality.


That women and men stand on an equal footing in Christ and that the Holy Spirit calls men and women to all the ministries of the Church is not a cultural accomodation to secular feminism, it is being true to Scripture and the teachings and example of Jesus.


I hope this provides some little justification for why
evangelical Christians can and do affirm female leadership in the Church.


Blessings.

130 posted on 07/16/2002 12:25:53 PM PDT by PresbyRev
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