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To: Twodees; mhking; mafree
RD, how is this a win for "our side"?

Think about it for a second. This decision was a MAJOR loss for the NEA and all of its minions. Also, it was a victory for those who know that their children are not getting a real education. Remember, over 65% of inner-city American black parents supported school choice initiatives while the Democrat legislators did not support the wishes of their own constituents. This is what I mean when I say that political understanding on our side is woefully inept. If we cannot see that this is an opening large enough to drive ten Mack 18-wheelers through, then we are hopeless. But no! Listening to some around here, let's just throw away this political win before we can even begin to use it.

I'm unapologetic when I say that this is absolutely STUPID on our part. We must learn to do better.

Our goal when we voted for Reagan and later for the republican overthrow in Congress was to abolish the federal Department of Education, not to chip away at the iron fist of control over our kids' futures with a shell game like this voucher idea.

Okay. But did you get it? Nope. I agree with the goal of the complete dismantling of the Department of Education because it is unconstitutional. The Constitution doesn't provide for education of any kind for any person or persons. In fact, I'm in line with Milton Friedman in that I want to abolish compulsory education altogether. But such radical and wide-sweeping initiatives are difficult if not impossible to accomplish. So, the next best thing is to secure a victory and build from there.

For whatever reason, our side doesn't want "the next best thing." We want all or nothing, and more often than not, we end up with exactly nothing.

A giant win for our side would be to get the dismantling of the DoEd back into the national discourse again.

Yeah, it would be. But we don't have that today, do we? So what are we to do? Work with what we have, that's what.

If you want vouchers in your county, get to work and get the provision adopted.

I'm aiming at a much larger target. This solution is nothing. And you just mentioned something about "too little, too late." You saying that vouchers are "a total pig in the poke" reveals political misunderstanding, and nothing else.

Congress critters don't want this to be addressed at the level of county property taxes because it will leave out everyone who is currently freeloading anyway.

That's an understated slant, but it didn't go over my head. Whatever. If this is "freeloading," how many millions of others have "freeloaded" then? I see terms such as "welfare" and "freeloading" within this subject. I wonder why...

The educational system we have now has been in place for years and years and years. When it came down to the state of the awful education that public schools were giving, especially to our inner-city areas, deserved mockery and disdain were given by our side. It was, and is, terrible. But now that the education issue is addressed where it can actually help push us toward what we truly want (and poorer blacks are the initial beneficiaries), the term "welfare" is thrown about. Question: If going to school before was not described so openly as "welfare," then how the hell is it "welfare" now? I wish we'd make up our minds.

That's how it should be: if you pay property taxes, you can get relief of those taxes in proportion to how much tuition you pay a private school or in proportion to how much county property tax is spent per student in the county schools. that this is not what is being discussed by the politicians should tell you something. It should tell you that they have another welfare scam in mind.

Is this what we have now? No. Can this be initiated tomorrow. No. So your point is... what? It amazes me that you fail to see that this is the first serious step towards this goal. But you don't want it. I'll take it, however. And the reason why I'll take it is that the sooner kids get a quality education, the sooner they'll realize that the world is not how they've been taught previously to view it. Moving away from the Leftist indoctrination that our children receive is a more than worthy goal in my book. And lastly, it's just the start. We must start somewhere. If what our politicos are not saying should tell me something, the amount of wailing coming from the NEA and Democrats should tell you something.

184 posted on 07/05/2002 4:29:07 PM PDT by rdb3
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To: rdb3
RD, we're getting worse than nothing of we fall for this liberal, touchy-feely voucher welfare scam. Who says we can't dismantle the DoEd? Why can't we? Conservatives outnumber liberals by a wide margin, as we saw in both of Reagan's campaigns and in the '94 congressional elections.

The department could be gone this time next year if we stood together and demanded it. Instead we're expected to listen to the liberal GOP strategists and "conservative" pundits on TV and keep letting the liberals have their way when they don't have anywhere near the power we have. We have the US Constitution behind us. What do they have? The news media.

Nobody has presented a single thing to show that vouchers will provide any choice for most families. Vouchers are welfare. That's all they are. What vouchers will give us is the gangster kids of welfare witches in the classrooms of our private schools. Once something like that becomes a federal program, then the welfare sucking leisure class has a "right" to it from then on.

Show me where I'm wrong.
191 posted on 07/05/2002 6:50:49 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: rdb3; Twodees; mhking
I also wish there were no federal department of education and I'm even open to abolishing compulsory education, with limited publicly-funded instruction available for those who would want it. I'm willing to allow that out of concern for the children out there whose parents wouldn't teach them at home in a million years.

In the meantime, I don't want to see parents who accept vouchers stigmatized as welfare grabbers, for they are no more that than if they were sending their kids to public schools. Not to mention all the other "welfare" that the goobermint pays for.

197 posted on 07/05/2002 9:44:21 PM PDT by mafree
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