RAZORMOUTH: Under God, Under Man -- What's so great about the Pledge of Allegiance anyway?

RAZORMOUTH.com ^ | June 29, 2002 | Jim Babka

[Jean Chauvin]

Thanks for the ping. We reformed folk in W. Mich. have been doing our part. In the 30 mile radius from Grand Rapids there are:

some 25+ Christian feeder elementary and middle schools(same Chr. school sys)

6 Christian High Schools -ranging from about 400 students to over 1100 students per H.S. (same Chr. school sys.)

and 1 Christian College.

And that's not including all the Catholic, Lutheran and Baptist schools.

Jean

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Republican Party: A car in every garage. Democrat Party: A chicken in every pot. Libertarian Party: POT. Period.

Nope.

In 1962, the Supreme Court told public schools that prayer was banned. Since then, indignant Christians have fought for a constitutional amendment and through the courts to restore that right. Forty years later, they have little to show for those efforts. Right around the same time, parochial schools experienced a renaissance. Christian schools sprung up like weeds all over the countryside. If the schools were going to separate God from their kids, then these responsible parents were going to separate their children from the government schools. I’m a product of that movement. My parents made the decision to switch me from a public to a Christian school in third grade—I’m glad they did. Now I’m a home-schooling parent, because I believe my children’s education is my responsibility.

Christian Libertarianism in Action.

Your slur don't stick. Back to the drawing-board with you.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Thanks for the ping. We reformed folk in W. Mich. have been doing our part. In the 30 mile radius from Grand Rapids there are: some 25+ Christian feeder elementary and middle schools(same Chr. school sys) 6 Christian High Schools -ranging from about 400 students to over 1100 students per H.S. (same Chr. school sys.)

Filed under my "last, best hope for the Republic" mental notes.

very cool. God bless.

[Illbay]

Ah, those fun-loving Libertines. Everything they do just makes 'em seem cuddlier and cuddlier, doesn't it?

[Illbay]

And how can a pledge be unconstitutional, it's a form of speech?

Because, said the court, a teacher "forces" pupils to say it, which makes it an "establishment of religion."

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Because, said the court, a teacher "forces" pupils to say it, which makes it an "establishment of religion." 25 posted on 7/3/02 9:17 PM Pacific by Illbay

More importantly, the State forces Parents to pay exorbitant Property, Sales, and Income Taxes for Publik Skooling, and forces Parents to sacrifice their children to the State 40 hours a week.

Under such conditions, the Virtue of Religious Freedom is perverted into the Abomination of Force. One Size does not fit all; "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson"

There can be only one solution: Abolition of Government Schooling.

Not Compromise. Not Charter Schools. Not Vouchers.

Abolition.

[A.J.Armitage]

Did you read the article?

[nunya bidness]

Having researched the history of "public" schools in this country I have to say that people of faith have no one but themselves to blame for the quagmire they're in now.

The problem wasn't whether there was faith in schools but rather which was the "right" faith.

Interesting that Horace Mann rejected Calvinism as a part of the process to create state schools.

What's your take?

[truth_session]

The Constitution endorses religion btw.

[truth_session]

Nobody is stealing anyone's money. Gimme a break.

Maybe you should just say that state-funded public schools are unconstitutional, which they are not. Or maybe you should just say that school vouchers and school choice is the only honest way to deal with public education. Either way, we all agree to live under the law of the land and pay taxes to the public toilet, nobody is stealing anyone's money.

[truth_session]

In 1962 the Supreme court ignored the 1st Amendment as do many so-called Christians.

[Dogrobber]

Let me take a shot at this. What is bad about the pledge decision is not that it divorces Christianity from schools, rather it is bad because of two specific aspects of the ruling. The first is that it establishes an religion and the second is that it prohibits the expression of religious speach in a public context.

Regardless of what the No-God set like to think, atheism is a religion. These folks believe that there is no god. Of course, you cannot prove this and so it must be based upon faith. A religion as much as Christianity or Islam. In prohibiting a reference to one god the Courts are establishing a religion in godlessness. That is just what the Constitution prohibits.

Second, the current position on references to God violates the free speach rights of persons in government and the majority of those who wish to observe religious tenets together in the public forum. American citizens have been told that there is a whole section of their lives in which they are barred from observing when they are in the public sphere. This is a pernicious view and smacks of Stalin or Hitler or any number of mean little dictators.

American citizens should be free to speak about God in any forum and in any context. The current Court has enacted a series of laws (not Constitutional positions, new laws under the guise of legal cases) which rob the public of their right to the common community expression of share values and religious views. Those in the minority must accept that the view that they have is not shared by the majority and that the majority has a "god" given right to believe as it chooses. That right includes the public expression of those views in all forums, including one created by the other expression of commonly shared values and goals - government.

[truth_session]

Nobody is forced to say the pledge. There has already been a ruling stating that nobody has to say the pledge.

[truth_session]

I think the established religion that is being repected here is liberalism.

And once again, nobody is forced to say the pledge.

[Illbay]

Of course. Why do you think I replied as I did?

[truth_session]

"The problem wasn't whether there was faith in schools but rather which was the "right" faith."

Well, whose schools are they? The separate states (local government and individuals), the collective states (the federal goverment), the Christians, the athiests, etc.?

Which faith should be allowed in the public schools?
Why is Islam taught in the public schools but Christianity cannot?

[Illbay]

But what opponents argue is that simply standing as a class to say the pledge puts an "undue burden" on those who don't wish to participate.

They become objects of scorn and derision. They become--*GASP!*--VICTIMS OF HATE CRIME!

[sheltonmac]

"One Nation, Under God, 'n Divisible, with Liberty..."

LOL!

[nunya bidness]

I posted a link to an article that I wrote that specifically addressed the issue of local versus federal in terms of schooling.

The problem wasn't that religion could be discussed in school but rather that religion became the wedge the state used to divide and conquer the local schools.

Once the content was granted to a central authority the fight was over. The God became the state.

[mafree]

bump