Posted on 06/24/2002 7:16:31 AM PDT by xsysmgr
1. Under section 349 of the Immigration Codes, a person may lose citizenship by entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state-engaged in hostilities against the U.S. ( This section seems a bit "iffy".)
2.The most reasonable -( previously tested and upheld ) apporoach is treating the detainee as an unlawful combatant ; ie: one who does not appear to be functioning within a command structure;who deliberately blends in with the civilian population;who does not openly carry arms;and who targets the civilian population, rather than the military.
3.The best known recent example of this involved Nazi saboteurs during WWII-one of whom was an American citizen.The would-be saboteurs were tried before a military tribunal-some executed; one imprisoned.
4. It seems worthwhile to repeat the remark made some time ago by a very distinguished jurist :
"The Constitution is NOT a suicide note ! "
Read the rest of the decision. They can hold "prisoners of war" and "unlawful combatants" without trial until the end of the hostilities.
It is only after the end of hostilities that they have to do anything under the rules of war.
Don't help the enemy and you won't get caught up in this.
First, you will have to post the California decision. Secondly, what rules of war are we talking about? Spying has nothing to do with this. Finally, since when did any Court say that an American can be held without due process on US Soil by the US Military that has not been charged with handling Americans in the first place?
The detention is totally Unconstitutional.
WHAT PART OF THIS ARE YOU NOT GETTING! PROVIDING THAT THE MILITARY TRIBUNAL HAS BENN LEGALLY ESTABLISHED TO TRY AMERICANS"!
It has not been! Even if it did detain unlawful combatants without tril according to the UCMJ he still has the right to counsel within 48 HOURS! Please do not insult me by saying that I am helping the enemy. I have served this Republic for 27 years. I am defending the Rights of AMERICANS, this mean you as well. I amnot defending a terrorist, I rathe rhave them tried by the Military. But done legally!
Congress ammended the rules of war after the war of 1812 to include U.S. Citizens.
During the Civil War people were held until the end of the war without trial. Read all of the Supreme Court decision of 1942. They explain all this.
The Supreme Court explained all this in 1942.
The Court in California dismissed the case for lack of Jurisdiction. It was appealed but the appeal court has not ruled yet.
I guess we will see who is right when it gets back to the Supreme Court to rule on the same issues. The last time it was 8 - 0.
I downladed it and read it. It is really enlightening. I did not know all the things they reference even existed. I am sure I am not the only one. The objections written in this thread are all covered by this decision.
The California court used this decision to find that they did not have jurisdiction.
It's my hope that the President will solve this by mending the order to include Americans. If the Military is good enough to try member of the Amred Forces it sure is good enough to try Terrorists.! The heck with the ACLU and its types.
No the President has not amended it. Don't ask me why? Some poltical handler thinks folk won't except it. No Congress does not have to approve or radify it. The 1942 case set all of this in motion.
Walt, either you left off the < /sarcasm > tag, or else someone else assumed your identity.
"If you are not with us, you're against us."
So who are we "with"???
The 1942 case follows earlier decisions and practices.
It for sure is good law, meaning it is the last word so far and so is binding on lower courts.
Where's the < /sarcasm>, Walt? What's bad about this? According to you, this is how much power the executive branch is supposed to have. You and I both know the executive branch has done this before and you agreed with it in that instance.
The mayor of Baltimore is not inciting mobs to fire on federal troops this time.
Walt
What? From his bed?
two o'clock a. m., on the 25th day of May, A. D. 1861, aroused from his bed by an armed force pretending to act under military orders from some person to your petitioner unknown
And not even definitive charges?
The case, then, is simply this: a military officer, residing in Pennsylvania, issues an order to arrest a citizen of Maryland, upon vague and indefinite charges, without any proof, so far as appears
Face it Walt, it's the same thing. Both cases unconstitutional. Of course we know who ignored those. Let's see if Bush is as uncaring about the Constitution, and from the looks of the National 'Inform on your neighbor and get money' Secret Police that's being set up, I'm of half a mind to believe that he is.
Friday 19 April 1861
In accordance with Special Orders, No. 6, the 6th Massachusetts Militia had proceeded to Washington City leaving Boston on the evening of the 17th, arriving in New York on the morning of the 18th and later Philadelphia in the evening of the same. Upon leaving Philadelphia, Colonel Edward F. Jones, commanding the 6th Massachusetts issued the following order to his men: "The regiment will march through Baltimore in column of sections, arms at will. You will undoubtedly be insulted, abused, and perhaps, assaulted, to which you must pay no attention whatever, but march with your faces square to the front, and pay no attention to the mob, even if they throw stones, bricks, or other missiles; but if you are fired upon and any one of you is hit, your officers will order you to fire. Do not fire into promiscuous crowds, but select any man whom you may see aiming at you and be sure to drop him."
On the morning of the 19th, Federal Military units numbering about 2,000 men in all arrived about 10:00 am in the city of Baltimore, Maryland via the Pennsylvania Wilmington & Baltimore Railroad, enroute for the Nation's Capitol. These troops were soldiers from both Massachusetts and Pennsylvania. The arrival of these troops had apparently gotten by the attention of the local police department in Baltimore up until about an hour prior to their arrival. As the train had pulled into the station these cars had been met by a growing crowd of hostile citizens, sneering, and yelling, shouting, and insulting their newly arrived guests.
The men, still inside the cars had requested permission to open up on the crowd but they had been refused. Shortly there after they had been fired upon and one soldier had taken a wound in the hand. The soldiers inside the cars firing into the crowd, driving their attackers away. The cars upon arrival were immediately attached to a horse team once the locomotive was detached and the cars were driven at a rapid pace across the city. As the cars, containing seven companies, had reached the Washington Depot the tracks behind them had been barracaded leaving the cars which carried the band, Companies C, D, I, and L to fend for themselves. These cars were evacuated and the soldiers forced to proceed by foot across town. They had marched up present day President's Street, made a left onto Pratt Street and continued their march through the heart of downtown approximately ten blocks enroute to the Camden Street Station. The Police Marshall (Kane) was immediately notified and had brought out a large portion of his force to attempt preserving order during their transit through the city. In doing so, he sent a message to the Mayor informing him that he apprehended some disturbance. Mayor George William Brown along with George M. Gill, esq., the counselor of the city climbed into a carriage and hastened to Camden Station. Marshall Kane's force arrived on the scene shortly before the passage of the first cars had made it safely to the Depot, but had noticed that the growing mob was now laying obstuctions across the tracks to prevent what was left from arriving without facing the danger of the gathering crowd. By the time Captain Follansbee's men had disembarked off the train and ordered into line, a crowd of about 10,000 Baltimorians had gathered.
His men were fired upon from rooftops and doorways, forcing the company commander to give the order to "Fire!" His men began receiving hits and the first to fall dead was Charles A. Taylor. He is known to be the first man to have died in the conflict known as the American Civil War. Private Luther Ladd, age seventeen, came from Alexandria, New Hampshire cryed out for the Stars and Stripes as he died. Addison Otis Whitney, age 22, soon fell also.
Whether it be premonition or just a bad gut feeling, Corporal Sumner Needham, when disembarking from the train, collared a friend in short telling him that he'd like his body shipped home in case he didn't make it out of Baltimore alive today. He was correct, he didn't. Corporal Needham was shot by a sniper from above, he lived for another eight days.
Twenty six members of the regiment were wounded that day. Reports put the casualties of the Baltimore citizens at about 100 although nothing had been so clearly reported. The 6th Massachusetts had discharged nearly 1,000 rounds of ammunition on their march across town. The Mayor upon arrival had placed himself at the head of the marching columns with intentions of preventing any difficulties. His presence did little to help however, and the growing hostilities soon forced him to grab hold of a musket and fire one deadly shot into a man in the crowd.
Missiles began to fly injuring some of the transiting soldiers. All along the route the mood of citizen and soldier alike became more intense and repeated conflicts between soldier and citizen resulted in death on both sides. The City Police were informed that another arrival of military had come in and many hastened to the Philadelphia Depot. The mobs had grown so hostile that the marshall could only give the soldiers protection by police force until they could move the cars back out of the city in the direction of Havre De Grace. It was becoming too dangerous to march them through Baltimore. The rioting from citizens in the city that day had caused a meeting of the city council and it had been determined by the Mayor of Baltimore, with the concurrence of the Governor of the state, that no more soldiers from the East or from the North were to pass through Baltimore, Maryland. The railroad bridges leading into the city were destroyed by order of the city causing a few thousand dollars damage to each.
The riot or massacre on that day had caused President Lincoln to take decision action, and ordered a Federal occupation of the city. Fort Federal Hill was built and life in Baltimore was never the same. The Federal troops had trained their artillery pieces on key points in the city of Baltimore such as City Hall and the Mayor's house. When Maryland and the city of Baltimore had plans of meeting for the seccession vote, Lincoln allowed them to meet but if perhaps they did approve of secession the cannon on Fort Federal Hill would begin to bombard and to destroy the city of Baltimore. Afterwards as Lincoln had suspended Habeas Corpus, key members of the city council such as Mayor Brown, city officials such as Police Marshall Kane had been incarcerated at Fort McHenry for holding southern sympathies and held without real charge brought before them. The railroad bridges in and out of the city of Baltimore were manned by Federal Artillery securing the bridges from molestation of any sort. Lincoln was going to hold Maryland in obeyance at all costs. The first human bloodshed had been spilled, the war just beginning, Americans North and South for the first time in their nation's history were about to pay witness to warfare, the likes of which none of their forefathers would have dreamed of.
Got this off a newsgroup.
As uusal, you depend on half truth for your arguments.
Now, it doesn't appear (as I thought) that the mayor of Baltimore was inciting the citizes to riot on this particular day. He was later arrrested for harboring traitorous sentiments.
If you think these types of conditions pertain in the case of Jose Padilla, you need to show it.
Walt
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.