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To: general_re
No, no. There is no indirect kick for handball, even an unintentional one - it is always a direct kick, even if it is unintentional.

Well, this is most embarrassing; I must defer to you and FIFA, of course. You'd think that in the course of several hundred competitive matches over the course of some 30 years in which I've participated as an amateur player that I would have figured that out.

Oh, well; such are the joys of learning soccer in America....

At least I didn't make a boo-boo as flagrant as one ref I know of who, after the opposing team kicked a corner kick that went out of bounds, declared: "Never came in; kick it over again!"

They scored on the rekick..... (for those not familiar with my point, on a corner kick, the ball starts out in the three foot radius arc at the corner of the pitch, and thus is by definition already "in bounds" -- hence, when the kicker booted it over the end line, it went from inbounds to out-of-bounds, and the defensive team should have been awarded a goal kick.) Our coach protested the game, to no avail.

But to return to the matter at hand, despite the fact that the handling was clearly unintentional, it directly and dramatically altered the course of the game, and thus, as per the correct rule you've pointed out, it should have been a PK for the US.

Thanks for correcting my longstanding mistaken understanding.

128 posted on 06/21/2002 1:46:15 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: longshadow
How humble of you ... and how refreshing.

As a female, and an aging one, at that -- I was too lazy to look it up ... and chance the "jeers" of those who "know better", but I knew (in my heart, LOL) that it was a PK for sure!

What a boner on that corner kick! An impossible scenario at best and a real protest cause, for sure!
129 posted on 06/21/2002 2:08:00 PM PDT by AKA Elena
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To: longshadow
LOL - grace and class, as ever. Let me apologize if my tone seemed a bit snippy. The rules on direct and indirect kicks were hammered home again and again when I was in referee school, but I've seen certified referees make that exact same mistake in amateur games. There is a certain logic to differentiating between unintentional and intentional handballs, and it is entirely possible that some leagues may have a rule to that effect, but it is not sanctioned by FIFA or the USSF.

In any case, there are ten situations when a direct kick is awarded:

1) (deliberately) kicking or trying to kick another player (or, God help you, the referee);
2) (deliberately) tripping or trying to trip another player;
3) (deliberately) jumping into another player (the feet-first karate move you see from time to time);
4) (deliberately) charging another player (e.g., knocking someone to the ground);
5) (deliberately) hitting or trying to hit another player;
6) (deliberately) pushing another player;
7) rough tackling (where you're going for the ball and you hit the player first or primarily);
8) holding another player (to slow him down or injure him);
9) spitting at another player (you'd be amazed at how often this actually happens, especially overseas);
10) handball (listed as "deliberate" in FIFA rules, but the advantage clause applies)

The first six (and the spitting rule) are automatic penalties, but the others are discretionary calls, where the referee should evaluate whether there is either a deliberate attempt to commit a foul, or, if not, whether some advantage has been gained by the player. If it's deemed unintentional, and no advantage is gained, the referee is encouraged to allow play to continue. If it's a handball that intentionally prevents a goal, that's a penalty kick and a red card, to boot. Any other offense (dangerous play, offsides, etc.) is an indirect kick.

But I've seen some seriously muffed calls over the years - offsides called on corner kicks (there is no offsides on a corner), indirect kicks where direct kicks are called for (especially after red-carding someone - if it was bad enough to toss somebody, it's generally a direct-kick penalty, almost by definition), and so forth. The qualifications of soccer referees in this country, and everywhere really, is rather uneven, to say the least, and there are a surprising number of calls that are blown, especially considering that the rules are really pretty simple. The FIFA "Laws of the Game" is less than 40 pages, for crying out loud - this isn't the encyclopedia of baseball rules ;)

And yes, that ref blew your corner kick call, badly. There is no "do over" on corner kicks, unless it goes back out, off of a defender ;)

134 posted on 06/21/2002 2:26:33 PM PDT by general_re
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To: longshadow
But to return to the matter at hand, despite the fact that the handling was clearly unintentional, it directly and dramatically altered the course of the game, and thus, as per the correct rule you've pointed out, it should have been a PK for the US.

Nice to see that you admit your error. But I want to also take you up on the question of "intentionality". The question has to be answered OBJECTIVELY, not subjectively. The German player watched the ball move to his hand (away from his body, protecting the goal space that he couldn't legitimately block with his body or head) and ALLOWED the ball to strike his hand -- he made no attempt to move his hand, and note that the ball was not travelling quickly. OBJECTIVELY, that is "intentional", and I don't have to get into his mind as to whether he "meant" to do it.

139 posted on 06/21/2002 3:07:29 PM PDT by WL-law
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