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US Loses To Germany 1-0, But Shows The World USA Soccer Is For Real
ESPN ^ | June 20,2002 | Self

Posted on 06/21/2002 6:36:46 AM PDT by Illbay

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To: luvbach1
I think it should be a goal if any part of the ball breaks the line. It's too damned hard to score as the rules now stand.

The problem with this idea is that it conflicts with the rule on what is/isn't out of bounds. Unlike American Football, where the player's body determines if the ball is in or out-of-bounds, the rule in soccer is based on the location of the ball, and for ALL situations, including goals, the definition is based on the entire ball being over the vertical plane of the entire touch line or end-line.

IN fact, a goal can be defined as a ball that goes out-of-bounds between the two goal posts and below the crossbar.

To change the rule so a goal is scored if ANY part of the ball is over the goal line would make it inconsistent with the rest of the rules, or in the alternative would result in making more balls on the sidelines out of bounds, effectively "narrowing" the field and making it easier for the defense to clog up the game, making it even harder to score.

I will parenthetically add that the beauty of soccer lies in part with the fact that it doesn't take a 12 volume set of rules to make it work. Contrast that with baseball or American Football......

161 posted on 06/21/2002 4:46:29 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: general_re
In any case, there are ten situations when a direct kick is awarded:

I notice there's no rule that appears to apply to "Trying to kill the ref in the parking lot after the game is over." A team mate of mine tried this once, after becoming incensed at the ref's call during the game, and aggravated by the fact that the ref sent him off for complaining about it.

The rest of the team held him back as he was clawing and screaming at them. Meanwhile, the refs (wisely) beat a hasty retreat.

And the league banned him for the balance of the season.... (those league officials never have a sense of humor.)

162 posted on 06/21/2002 5:05:13 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: Illbay; Cool Guy
I agree with you. I didn't think the US would win against Germany, or Mexico for that matter. I never thought they would make it out of the first round. The game against Germany was a GREAT soccer match, the US proved that it should not be underestimated.

So, although I am disappointed the US did not win, they played a great game of soccer. The soccer world should be on notice that the US is a contender.

Now, I am CRUSHED and WEEPING that ENGLAND lost to Brazil. THE HORROR, THE HORROR.

Prediction: Brazil wins the World Cup.

163 posted on 06/21/2002 5:18:46 PM PDT by diotima
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To: longjack

Here's a Picture from the 'Bild Zeitung'. They captioned it as:

The 'iffy' moment when Kahn steers the ball onto Frings Hand - No PK - We were lucky".

The ball is coming up here, I think. Germans seem to be about 50 - 50 on wether it was a PK or not. The ref justified the call by saying there was no intent by Frings to handle it.

longjack

164 posted on 06/21/2002 5:26:51 PM PDT by longjack
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To: Illbay
Diversity loses again.
165 posted on 06/21/2002 5:29:08 PM PDT by jwh_Denver
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To: diotima
I agree with you. At the beginning of the game, when I saw just how BIG and ACTIVE the german team was, I figured the final score would be 3-0. But the USA, especially Sanneh, O'Brien, Reyna, and Donovan played so well, they should be considered the equal of anyone in the highest level of European soccer.
166 posted on 06/21/2002 6:52:58 PM PDT by Remole
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To: longjack; general_re
The ref justified the call by saying there was no intent by Frings to handle it.

That's interesting, and conforms to my original assesment, but it sure seems to conflict with "general_re's" post and link, which clearly states the determination of whether or not a foul has occured when the ball has been "unintentionally" handled is whether or not it materially affects the course of action (IOW, did the team that "handles" the ball benefit by it significantly?)

IN this instance, Germany undeniably benefited in that it stopped the ball from entering the goal; hence, it should have been a major foul in the Penalty area, and thus a PK should have been awarded to the US.

Of course, the ref has broad discretion in this area; if he could have concluded that there was no advantage to Germany derived from the inadvertent hand-ball, he would be justified in ignoring it.

But that wasn't the case....

167 posted on 06/21/2002 7:00:53 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: longjack
Based on the pix. The ref blew the call.

While watching the game the TV angle made it seem as if his arm was very close to his body, and the handball was not called because the contact was incidental and unintentional. Perhaps it was unintentional, but the arm away from the body in this photo shows clearly that the action prevented a goal.

Should have been a P.K.

168 posted on 06/21/2002 7:43:59 PM PDT by rube
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To: Illbay
I don't mind admitting that I wouldn't have minded seeing the US do poorly in the World Cup Soccer game. We don't need to encourage kids in soccer any more than they already are.
169 posted on 06/21/2002 7:57:46 PM PDT by FrdmLvr
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To: longshadow
I notice there's no rule that appears to apply to "Trying to kill the ref in the parking lot after the game is over."

Ah, by definition, that's an "off the field" infraction, so the rulebook doesn't cover it - there's other rulebooks for that, like, say, penal codes. ;)

170 posted on 06/21/2002 8:33:17 PM PDT by general_re
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To: longjack; longshadow
The ref justified the call by saying there was no intent by Frings to handle it.

The ref's covering his ass. Intent doesn't matter when you stop a goal, and I used to make that exact same call from time to time.

I'll give you an example - I was calling a women's amateur game many moons ago. Now, if you've ever seen women's soccer, you'll know that, from time to time, the ladies will instinctively move to protect their...chests, basically, typically by covering up with the hands or forearms. They protect the north end, much the way men protect the south end ;) But, I always made it a practice to warn them beforehand that I was very sorry, but that was generally going to be a handball if they got hit like that, and I was going to call it as such.

So, here's the situation - you've got two offensive players charging down way ahead of everyone on a long pass - everyone but the keeper and two defenders. So, the one forward makes this beautiful fake shot and dumps it off to the other forward for the open shot. And the keeper bit on the fake, but she saw the setup. So she goes down on the fake, but as she's getting up, one of her two defenders gets tangled up with her. Now they're both down, and there's one defender standing between the second forward and an open goal. And the forward lines up, and smacks the living sh*t out of it...right at the last defender. And this poor girl instinctively crosses her arms in front of her chest, and the ball strikes her in the forearms and hands, and goes over the top of the goal.

Now, was she trying to prevent the goal? Not really - she was basically trying to keep from getting killed. But that's an open goal, and a dump shot for the forward if the defender doesn't take it in the hands. If the shot had been off-target, and wouldn't have gone in anyway, I would have seriously considered letting it go and just awarding the corner. But it was dead-on target for the goal, and in a case like that, I have no choice - it's got to be a penalty kick, because it's seriously affected the outcome of the game. And honestly, I'm sure they weren't happy about the call, but the defensive team in that situation understood it and accepted it as the right call.

And that's how it's gotta be in those situations. The rules allow for a tremendous amount of discretion by the referee - his rules are the only rules that count once you're on the field. But this guy blew the call, and frankly, I'd have a bit more respect for him if his excuse was that he was out of position and just didn't see it, because now he's basically admitting he saw it, and trying to justify his bullsh*t call.

Not that this is exactly the first time handball calls have been blown in the World Cup - those of you who follow soccer may remember Diego Maradona's famous "Hand of God" goal from some years ago. As bad as this call was, that one was infinitely worse ;)

171 posted on 06/21/2002 8:54:07 PM PDT by general_re
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To: FrdmLvr
Sure, let's keep 'em on the couch watchin' Nickelodeon and eatin' fruit loops. That'll teach the rest of the world a lesson...

(Is it okay if they actually like soccer and want to play?)

172 posted on 06/21/2002 9:03:08 PM PDT by keri
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To: Illbay
I'm not ordinarily a soccer fan, but I watched every game our team played during the World Cup and supported them. I'm very proud of them for making it as far as they did.
173 posted on 06/21/2002 9:17:22 PM PDT by dougherty
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To: Illbay
Great World Cup for the American team.
I'm not a soccer fan and watched with pride at the skills and gamesmenship displayed.
I smell a WC championship within 12 years.
174 posted on 06/21/2002 11:31:28 PM PDT by PRND21
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To: general_re
I have been ref'ing for ten years. I agree with you to some extent on your interpretation of the "handling" call. When I am in the center, I try to assess the sophistication of the players. I have seen, and called, several very good players who allow "ball to hand" to occur, and take advantage of the result. It is the spirit of the law that counts. It was clear to me that the German defender on the goal line, at the pole, allowed to ball to hit his arm and rebound back into play (the ball coming off a tip by his own goal keeper!). The linesman was obscured and was only concerned about the ball over the line or not. The center could have, and in my opinion, should have made that call, in light of the fact that these are the most sophisticated players in the world and that they practice this sort of deception every day. But I had the advantage of a televison view and slo-mo replay - the center ref did not.
175 posted on 06/21/2002 11:43:42 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: longjack
That is a great picture. Not only should that be a PK for "handling," but the defender should have been red carded for serious misconduct. I am sure you are aware that it is serious misconduct and a send off offense for committing a penal foul on an "obvious goal scoring attempt." Usually this happens when an attacking player is pulled down from behind on a break away toward the opposing goal. But I have on a few occasions called and carded when a defender "caught" or "handled" a ball going into the net.
176 posted on 06/21/2002 11:52:43 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: capitan_refugio
'Zackly, although I'm not so sure about carding in that case - the slow-motion replay makes it look more deliberate than maybe it was. At full speed, it's more plausible that it really was an accident, although at the world Cup level, the players are experts at those "accidental-on-purpose" fouls, to be sure...
177 posted on 06/22/2002 12:06:47 AM PDT by general_re
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To: capitan_refugio
I'm a Germany fan. After I saw the replay I knew I would have called it a PK. I don't think I would have sent Frings off. The deflection came quickly and suprisingly from Kahn. Frings probably didn't handle it intentionally, but unless his arm is across his body it's a hand ball. At the level he's playing at he's got to know better.

I never got the idea he deliberately moved his hand to the ball, that's why I wouldn't have sent him off.

I can talk big, sitting in my living room watching the replay.

The US questioned the linesman (the english guy). I saw the assistent point to his eyes as if to say "I saw the whole thing", but I think they were claiming the ball crossed the line. I don't remember anyone claiming hand ball. Usually the offended team will immediately pat their arm to show the ref they saw a hand ball. I think the original reaction was about wether the ball crossed the line or not, not the handball. Only after seeing the replay did the handball issue arise for me.

I think the US player nearest Frings immediately looked at the assistent and claimed the ball went over the line. He didn't pat his arm as if to say 'handball'. Maybe everything happened so quick no one saw it. That US player had the best view of anyone. I can judge a lot by the player's reactions in a game. If I'm screened on a play and player or two turn to me and start gesturing for a hand ball I tell them "I'm sorry, I was screened, I didn't see it. I'll bet in this case, especially since the ball was loose and was moving unpredictibally, no one saw it until the replay.

I thought the ref, Hugh Dallas from Scotland, was really solid. He checked with his assistents when he had too, etc. I bet he didn't see it.

I thought the whole game, including the tribute to Fritz Walter before the game and the obvious friendly relationship between German coach Rudi Voeller and american players after the game was a class act. It was a good day for American soccer.

longjack

178 posted on 06/22/2002 12:47:09 AM PDT by longjack
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To: diotima
I am supporting the GERMANS, although, so far Brazil has played a lot better than them.
179 posted on 06/22/2002 4:24:24 AM PDT by Cool Guy
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To: luvbach1
It doesn't matter, South Korea is obviously going to win it all, the referees will make sure of it.
180 posted on 06/22/2002 5:53:36 AM PDT by dfwgator
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