Posted on 06/21/2002 6:36:46 AM PDT by Illbay
I think a better insomnia cure would be to videotape one of those major league baseball games that drags on for 3-4 hours in which 10 relief pitchers are used. Talk about sleep inducing - Yawn!
In longshadow's defense, a great deal of refereeing in soccer consists of judgement calls. In this case, as per the FIFA article I referenced in #94, the question for the referee is basically "was the ball moving to the hand, or was the hand moving to the ball?" And then the subjective judgement of the ref really comes into play, because he has to judge whether or not the player gained some advantage by the handball. In this case, he clearly did, as the ball was prevented from entering the goal, but if that same play occurs away from the goal, then the referee is probably making the right call by letting play continue, assuming there is no advantage gained by the handball.
Really, for calls like that, context and advantage are everything when it comes to making the call. And those are inherently subjective judgements. That being said, the ref blew the call - clearly, by preventing the ball from entering the goal, the player gained an advantage, and a penalty kick should have been awarded. However, as it was clearly unintentional, no card should have been issued - intentionally preventing the ball from entering the goal with your hands is a red-card offense.
And finally, in defense of the referee, the replay clearly showed what happened, so I can only assume that both the ref and the linesman were blocked by other players and missed the call. That's not much of a defense - their job is to be in the right position to make those calls in the first place - but that's likely what happened....
I hope you're right but I watched the England/Brazil match and Brazil looks like a handful. I was rooting for England, returning the favor for quite a few Brits rooting for the USA, and sadly it appeared after Brazil scored the equalizer in stoppage time before the half, the English stopped pressing. Even with a man advantage for 30 minutes or so, it looked like Brazil was on the power play.
I think the US played Germany far stronger than England played Brazil. Maybe it was the heat, maybe that Brazil is just too much, but I feel sorry for England that they lost on that free kick goal that was the equivalent of kicking the ball into a large garbage pail from 25 yards out.
Frings was in his defensive position on the near post, with his arms down along his body. You do not have to move your arm, as you would not have to move your arm guarding your groin or face in the blocking wall. The ball hit his arm as he was in a defensive position. No whistle.
In the discussion over in the Kicker.de forum someone made the point that Frings didn't move the arm, even reflexively. Either he is an extremely cool cucumber or he didn't see it.
Also, people have stated that the play was blown off before all that because Kahn was obstructed in the 5 meter area. That would make the question moot.
I think the consensus from the Germans on the game is that the US played very, very well and Germany kept their poise and scored the goal. The better team didn't necessarily win, but the German patience and tactics paid off for them.
Without a doubt, without Oli Kahn, the US wins.
The other issue I've seen here about Ahn, the Korean player who shot the golden goal against Italy, then lost his job, has been pretty well refuted IMHO. The owner of FC Perugia, the Italian side is apparently a "Margie Schott" type. Sports' reporters like to 'unload' on him and embellished some quotes from both sides to create an issue. Factually, Ahn made 1.5 million last year riding the bench. His contract runs out June 30 and he was going to be released anyway. It seems the club helped Ahn a great deal with his career, and Ahn understands the situation.
longjack
That is cute. The 64 games of the World Cup will be watched by a combined 42 billion people. The final will have over 2 billion people watching. This is not the tiddly wink championship of Deer Spit Michigan.
It's not your cup of tea, fine. Just allow those of us who are passionate about the sport, to enjoy it for a few moments ok?
Considering the fact that the vast majority of players on the Barcelona Dragons roster are American, you would basically end up with one American team beating another American team to win "World Bowl I".
It could be any time now when we hear of a NFL player tipping the scales at over 400 pounds, or has it already happened? With the average NFL linemen getting fatter, er, bigger every year, I'm waiting for the day when NFL teams start signing Japanese sumo wrestlers to play linemen positions in the NFL.
Enjoy the finals.
You miss my point. Feel free to find it boring. It is like going onto a x-files discussion group and telling everybody the show stinks. Going up to a group of Rolling Stones fans and telling them that their music stinks. It is tacky. That is what bugs me. Start your own thread of the he-man we hate soccer club. Be my guest. Just don't rain on our parade. That is my point.
Not according to this former 3 time World Cup champion(see below).
And I also saw the handball after watch many replays of it. I concluded it was intentional. The defense player only had to move his arm a few inches to the left, deflecting the spinning balls path that kept it out of the net.
Beckenbauer: Germany lucky to win
Updated: Friday June 21, 2002 10:49 a.m. ET
BERLIN (Reuters) -- Former Germany captain and coach Franz Beckenbauer said that the three-times winners were lucky to beat the United States 1-0 in their World Cup quarter-final on Friday.
"America were clearly the better team for 90 minutes," said Beckenbauer, an analyst for Germany's pay-television network. "We'll have to raise our game considerably after this. Hopefully, good fortunate will remain faithful to us.
Beckenbauer also said Germany were fortunate the referee failed to award the Americans a penalty kick four minutes into the second half when German defender Torsten Frings handled on the line after Oliver Kahn had half-saved a Gregg Berhalter shot.
"It's actually a clear penalty kick when one's hand touches the ball on the goal line," he said. "It should have been a penalty."
Beckenbauer, who helped Germany win the World Cup as a player in 1974 and led them to the title as coach in 1990, said Germany had been passive for long stretches against the Americans.
"I can't explain it," he said. "Leading 1-0 you have to keep trying to penetrate into the other team's defence."
Beckenbauer said even though the Americans had played strongly, Germany would probably not have survived had they faced a more dangerous opponent.
"The opponent wasn't Brazil or England or Argentina," he said. "This was America!"
Copyright 2002 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.
If the hand was there first, then by definition of causality, it can't be there with the intention of handling the ball, as the player didn't know the ball was going there before he put his hand in that position. Thus it is not "deliberate" handling of the ball.
Now, I will grant you that if the ball were kicked from mid-field, and you saw it coming and left your hand were it was going, that would be deliberate handling, but in today's game there was very little time for anyone to react, as it was deflected up into his hand from a short distance away.
In the same tone, and in the same paragraph Beckenbauer says you can "clearly see Frings hand move to the ball." I've seen a lot of people writing that he didn't move the arm. That's a completly different situation. I don't think he moved his arm.
Beckenbauer is peeing in the wind here.
The most sought-after analyst for German soccer is Guenther Netzer. I've been looking around for what he has to say, but I haven't found it yet.
This is definitely a controversial play. If I'm refereeing I call it a PK. The people defending the call say Frings didn't move his arm, which changes the interpretation.
longjack
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