"Learning While Black": Racially profiling in the classroom?

National Review Online ^ | May 30, 2002 | Roger Clegg

[AmishDude]

Well said. Marxism as religion is easy to see but you flesh it out nicely. I wonder if parallels can be drawn between the fall of Marxism as a philosophy and the fall of some once-powerful religions.

It is amazing, though, to see what has happened to it. There are different strains of it and each strain has a different idea of the proletariat.

[mafree]

What we're talking about specifically here is not a matter of "higher" or "lower" standards. It's more like what constitutes "acceptable" behavior. The two should not be confused- I am not for lowering standards but I don't believe that every social setting calls for all of us to express ourselves in the same way. Therefore, I stand on my previous point that some Blacks are unfairly labeled and penalized because of how they may act when the setting or the circumstances don't warrant the imposition of a narrow standard of conduct.

[mafree]

What a burden the high-performing black person has to bear.

The burden's always been there. Before affirmative action it was just a presumption that Blacks were inferior. After affirmative action, the presumption hasn't really changed.

[mafree]

I suspect that black society has not effectively differentiated black middle-class culture from underclass culture.

Within the race, we do- others outside the race rarely do because race is so much more of an issue than class when it comes to judging Blacks.

I suppose what ends up happening is that blacks who join the middle-class, end up adopting the white middle-class culture.

Some do, some don't.

[mafree]

Part of the problem is also historical.

I'm glad someone else here recognizes that.

I work with college educate blacks who never read the newspaper, never read a novel, and do not follow current events at all. They also never take their children to museums, historical sites, and or cultural events. Why? Because they grew up no knowing anyone who did such things? It is part culture but their culture is built of history.

You are right, and part of that history is a culture of segregation. Most Blacks who did not grow up under segregation and are at the same time interested in education and culture tend to expose their kids to those things, even if they are not well-educated and/or have blue collar jobs. That is basically the story of my family.

[CatoRenasci]

But who, other than those who run the institution in question, is the arbiter elegantum who determines what the range of acceptable behavior in any given circumstance is? You seem to be arguing that there is some (lower) objective standard that's acceptable and that blacks are unfairly penalized for meeting that standard rather than the higher (narrower) one imposed by those who run an institution. Without some pretty good 'who are the guardians' and 'who will guard the guardians' arguments, you're just making the typical liberal's 'we know better what you should do' argument, and it doesn't fly.

[LouD]

Certain attitudes and actions are considered "acceptable" among many Blacks, including a little more outward vocal and physical expressiveness, which is sometimes misinterpreted as being too loud or even violent by Whites.

Not misinterpreted at all - Correctly interpreted as disruptive behavior in a classroom.

[LouD]

Whites are a little too "uptight" about such behavior

Huh? Ever try to control a classroom of second graders? it's difficult with well-behaved kids. It's impossible with kids who won't follow the rules.

I have been a Junior Achievement volunteer for over ten years, for grades ranging from first grade to high school seniors, in schools ranging from inner-city to affluent suburbs. Am I "uptight" about student behavior? Only when it makes impossible for me to teach my material. What you discount as merely a cultural difference is probably a big part of the reason why schools serving largely black populations generally do such an abysmal job. If those teachers were less "culturally sensitive" and a little more "uptight", the kids might actually learn something.

[fineright]

If I`m on there, take me off.

[parsifal]

True. But after 1964, the "everybody's equal" became the law and I think also a normative presumption among people. How sad that the leftists have screwed all that up in their lust for power. parsy.

[LetsRok]

Not anymore. Now they major in African-American studies, and everybody passes.

I can't wait to interview a job candidate with "Afro-American Studies" listed as their major. I will laugh them out of my office.

[mafree]

You seem to be arguing that there is some (lower) objective standard that's acceptable and that blacks are unfairly penalized for meeting that standard rather than the higher (narrower) one imposed by those who run an institution.

No-- I'm not saying those standards are higher or lower- you are the one evaluating them on that scale. My argumnent here is not about test scores- it's more about conduct. The one and only point I'm making here is this- sometimes certain standards of conduct matter, sometimes they do not. When they don't, why punish those who don't act according to those standards?

[mafree]

Certain attitudes and actions are considered "acceptable" among many Blacks, including a little more outward vocal and physical expressiveness, which is sometimes misinterpreted as being too loud or even violent by Whites.

Not misinterpreted at all - Correctly interpreted as disruptive behavior in a classroom.

The problem is that too many times disruptive behavior from a White student is overlooked while the same disruptive behavior in a Black student is punished. That's the real double standard I'm referring to.

[mafree]

Am I "uptight" about student behavior? Only when it makes impossible for me to teach my material.

If that's the case then we have nothing to debate unless you're harder on Black students who keep you from teaching than White students who do the same thing.

[Archie Bunker on steroids]

The problem is that too many times disruptive behavior from a White student is overlooked while the same disruptive behavior in a Black student is punished. That's the real double standard I'm referring to.

My highschool was one of middle class whites (60%) & ghetto blacks, who were bussed in (40%). Only a handful of the bussed in kids went to school to learn, and those kids had something in common- a parent who cared. There was a small minority of middle class blacks also & they performed at the same level as whites from their economic status.

Regarding the double standard. In my school it was the exact opposite of what you describe. The black kids were simply predators who would terrorize the white kids. When these kids would beat the hell out of a white kid, who just happened to be in the bathroom at the wrong time, the white kid would get suspended for the same amount of time. This happened all of the time & parents could do nothing about it. Why? Well the school didn't want to look racist. I know! There wasn't a white kid in my school who wasn't afraid everytime the bell rang. MAFREE, I lived it & know. The double standards are 100% opposite then the one you describe.

[mafree]

Trust me- I know that double standards in schools sometimes work against Whites, as you have so well stated. The thread, though, addressed the problem as it is applied to Blacks. You are certainly right to make the points you made here.

[CatoRenasci]

You miss my point entirely, which is who determines whether or not the conduct matters? If I think it matters, then I have every right to form opinions based on that conduct. What you are telling me is that, in your opinion, the conduct shouldn't matter in certain situations where I think it should. But, I ask, on what basis other than your opinion? You have offered no objective basis. As to conduct in school and attitudes of respect towards adults generally, teachers in particular, and behaving according to the norms of politeness and civility, there is a long tradition that suggests that polite, quiet and attentive behavior and a displayof respect are conducive to learning and the operation of civil society. I don't consider loud, rude and vulgar, disrespectful behavior acceptable from any group, be they black, brown, yellow or white. Within 'white' society, the middle and upper middle classes are at least as judgmental about lower class whites who display unacceptable behaviors (especially when they are 'ethnic' whites) as they are about blacks and other minorities.

Having heard my Reconstruction-era (born 1871) Southern-raised grandmother be far more condemnatory of "white trash" than of "colored people" [a term she used scrupulously because only "white trash" used the "n" word] because "colored people can't help it" and "with white trash it's their own fault", I formed a firm conviction that the only nonracist way to judge people was to apply the same standards to everyone.

[CatoRenasci]

The problem is that too many times disruptive behavior from a White student is overlooked while the same disruptive behavior in a Black student is punished. That's the real double standard I'm referring to.

Here we agree: disruptive behavior should not be tolerated from any student. As much as teachers must try to treat everyone equally, we know they are human, with the same failings as we have, and I'm sure it is not a rare occurence that teachers let behavior slide in white kids with whom they can identify (at least the first time or two) that they would crack down on in black kids, especially those who come with histories of being disruptive. Is that wrong? Yes, as I've consistently stated in this thread, standards should be the same for all. The harder question is the context of the behavior and the surrounding circumstances. A 'smart' remark from an otherwise good student doesn't have the same effect on classroom discipline that a 'smart' remark from a kid who is failing and has no interest in the class. The former may simply break the tension and get a laugh, the latter may be a direct challenge to the teacher's authority. But that can only be determined in the situation and that's where mature judgement comes in. A judgement all too often lacking. I sympathize with your concerns, truly, despite the serious points I've made in other posts.

[mafree]

I formed a firm conviction that the only nonracist way to judge people was to apply the same standards to everyone.

I can agree as long as the punishments for violating those standards are equal. The point of the article is that they are sometimes not, though we have also been discussing standards and who should set them.