"A Systemic Devaluation Of Fathers As Caregivers"

Toogood Reports ^ | 5/28/02 | Isaiah Flair

[Dr. Octagon]

Real men aren't intimidated by women, but rather by the other men who do the women's bidding.

[Dr. Octagon]

They have different capabilities, and they make different choices. Reality reflects this truth.

And all of that should be defined by YOU?

The fact is, there should be gender-neutral standards...and then if certain areas of life wind up with more women or with more men, due to the decisions of those individual women and men, so be it. No social engineering from the right or the left needed. But both the right and the left do deny reality when they look down upon a stay-at-home dad doing a perfectly good job, calling him a "Mr. Mom", or when they look down upon a female construction worker who is doing a perfectly good job, calling her "butch" or "a dyke" just because of her occupation. Many psuedointellectual conservatives are obsessed with "traditional" roles. Let people do what they are good at. No affirmative action, but no affirmative presumptions of gender-based lesser ability in any given area of life either!

[RogerFGay]

In post #18, you said '~' OK, I'll say something in response. The argument in the article is based on the premise that:

Some seek a return of that past, wanting women completely out of the workforce. This is based upon the premise that these roles, women as caregivers and nothing else, and men as providers and nothing else, were best for society in the first place.

It's a false premise. There was never a time in history when women didn't work. Some women had the luxury of staying "out of the workplace" and some still do, preferring it. Some could stay out of the workplace but prefer to have a career. That'a always been true as well. There never was a time, anywhere, that has the characteristics that the author describes.

As far as what is "best for society," that's a multi-dimensional question. But one dimension that has had sufficient repeatable research is this. Children do better growing up in households where one of the parents is available. This has usually been the mother, so empirical research has shown better results for children whose mothers work part time outside the home once the children are old enough to attend school. The authors of such research have interpreted the "part time" employment factor as also relating to higher education of both parents.

That's what the research says regardless of anyone's "being fibre."

[Snuffington]

And all of that should be defined by YOU?

The fact that men and women are different doesn't imply that anyone gets to become the gender difference dictator. What lead you to such a bizarre supposition?

Get off your high horse.

[shaggy eel]

"~" meant to serve as a "ping" or "BUMP".

[RogerFGay]

I'm flattered you thought of me. I wasn't even in the discussion in this thread. ~

[shaggy eel]

,,, it [and some of the comments] seemed close enough to the "Knight defending Fatherhood" one, that I thought you may want to jump in.

Regards.

[RogerFGay]

~ Thanks for the personal invite.

[Harrison Bergeron]

"Women for centuries have even professed a fear of insects in order for males to feel themselves in a position of power..."

What a weird and oversimplified stereotype to comment on. My wife picks up spiders and puts them outside so they'll take care of the pesky flying insects. My grandmother used to gross me out by killing huge bugs by swatting them with her open hand then picking them up to put them in the trash.

OTOH, there was a single lady who moved in up the trail from us who called 911 to get a spider out of her bathroom. They killed the spider after they were done treating her for hyperventalation. She wasn't "professing" anything, she was terrified. She moved out a few months later.... the country wasn't her cup of tea.

[RogerFGay]

Some women ... you know if you're talking about "some" women, or men, or people; just about anything is true. Take the statements: women did not work outside the home, and women did not own property. It's all true if it means "some women."

[Harrison Bergeron]

I wasn't questioning the stereotype... just its oversimplification. That women and men do a sexual dance around fear and bravery is hardly earth shattering insight.

[sarasmom]

But that was mine. Men and women are perfect dance partners.

Perhaps I was too frivilous in my responce but I tend to giggle when the war between the sexes comes up as a topic.

Women have always held power, just as have men.Historically rigid roles did not weigh so heavily on the elite of any past society, they had leisure to discover personal preferences and the means to indulge them. The vast majority of the rest of humanity were locked in a day to day struggle for survival.

Once mankind discovered technology and mass produced it, traditional male/female roles became an "object of scorn" or the "only right way" to people of both sexes who were confused by their new freedoms and choices. Several generations of western civilization were/are so confused they seem to seek excuses to explain their lack of confidence in the personal choices they have made regarding their "role" as a man or woman.

.As a woman, I see this most clearly in the "Mommy wars " .Women feel either guilt or superiority,based on envy or scorn, of another womans freely chosen lifestyle.It is sometimes hard for us humans to just try to do the best we can,without a defined set of expectations to measure our success.

I see some hope in the next generation that both men and women will feel comfortable in their own skins, whether they choose a more traditional role or a variation.

Throughout this post I am speaking of heterosexual,relatively normal men and women.

[Harrison Bergeron]

I've decided that you are a goddess. :-)

[Lord Z]

Sarasmom: You make some really good points.