Messianic Jews and Israel

arutzsheva | 5-14-02 | S. Alfassa Marks

[Betty Jane]

I don't quite understand how a Jew who comes to believe Jesus was the Messiah of the Old Testament is no longer a Jew. I thought Jewishness was conveyed by birth of Jewish mother or conversion. I know Israel has always been concerned with Jewish lineage.

But as long as one practiced Jewish rituals and had a Jewish mother, one was considered a Jew. The only way to un-become a Jew was to publicly declare oneself some other religion. Saying you believe the messiah has already come in the person of Jesus Christ is not the same thing as being baptised in the Catholic Church.

It is simply a disagreement with rabbinical scholars, who, in Judaism, do not hold the same sway over religious beliefs as do the Pope or Protestant Bishops.

After all that, I'm not Jewish, but this is my understanding.

[razorbak]

g. He says in his p.6 that the MJ's (and thus by implic Christians).."worship Jesus"... a troubling formulation a Christian would never use...We worship God, one God, and Jesus only as and to the extent that he was an avatar or apparition of that God...a revelation of Him...Just as the Holy Spirit is an aspect or "side" or "part" from our limited human perspective, of God...he has revealed himself to man in those three ways, and still does so, in each of the three, every day, but it is not a Trinity of gods, but a trinity of manifestations, of one God to man. Or so I understand it, please disregard unfamiliar vocabulary...

Sounds like you are a Jehovah's Witness, or a Unitarian, or maybe even a "oneness" Pentecostal. I am a Baptist and a trinitarian as all Baptists and Protestants originally were, what are you?

[week 71]

Someone can't become Caucasian if they were born black...unless you are Michael Jackson of course.

Grin

[crystalk]

Actually, to be 144,000 there would have to be 12,000, not ten thousand, from each tribe...if there were 12 tribes...

Halakha is a body of Jewish law, and it is usually referred to in connection with the rules as to who is a Jew, or as to how a non-Jew may lawfully and thus acceptedly, ever convert into that faith.

If a person is a Jew halakhically, he/she either was born to a Jewish mother, or underwent a full conversion process at the hands of an Orthodox rabbi qualified to perform such conversions, and this involves circumcision for a male, and immersion in a mikvah bath (origin of Christian custom of baptizing converts)...for either sex, as I understand it. Besides studying the mitzvahs and promising to try to keep them, although I think about 30 of the 613 are observed even by the so-called modern orthodox. So it looks to me...

Besides that, circumcizing young adult males is so onerous, I think that they just draw a tiny droplet of blood from the penis instead, the tiniest amount that can be seen on a white Kleenex...of course come to think of it, most Christians in the USA were already circumcized anyway, so go figure.

[Maximus_Ridiculousness]

This is so true. We used to have a "messianic jew" in the office.

All she did was make her way thru the cubicals to preach.

She doesn't work here anymore...

[crystalk]

You are exactly right. Until I had thoroughly studied, and understood, Judaism, I could not figure out what Christianity was even talking about. The Fear of Ha-Shem is the beginning of wisdom, the air of the Holy Land makes one wise, go to Jerusalem first, then everything else will be clear.

[week 71]

Actually, to be 144,000 there would have to be 12,000, not ten thousand, from each tribe...if there were 12 tribes

AAHH! Chagrin. I wrote 10,000 didn't I. Anyway thanks for the information about Halakha. I find that most useful. You too onedoug.

[onedoug]

I think you'd get a fair amount of reservation of those views from Jews who might point out that Christ was overly occupied with the life to come rather than living his mitzvot more seriously in this. The messianic aspects of Judaism usually seem more given to culmination than the continuation of man in even greater tension with God than before the resurrection. Though I certainly note your "Christian" points.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

[Maximus_Ridiculousness]

A Messianic Jew is actually completing his Judaism by accepting Christ as His Messiah.

I'm a bit rusty on Judaism, but my Jewish friends have explained to me very simply that though they believe Jesus lived, he was only a Profit. The Jewish people, or at least the practicing orthodox Jews I know, are still waiting for the coming of the Messiah.

Put Simply, Jesus was not he.

[crystalk]

I warned you I was going to use unfamiliar vocabulary. So many Christians worship a given creed, or jargon, or fixed phrase 1700 years ago carved in stone, that they wouldn't even recognize their own ideas if restated in today's English, or if translated into Chinese, and then back into English!

Thank God we are not saved by uttering old verbal formulations we don't understand.

Nobody more mainstream than I, but above all don't mention the JW, they are a pet peeve of mine. I am a Trinitarian, but I do not believe in three gods. One god, three means or methods of appearing (relating) to Man, over time, and space, and from one man to another, from one day to another. In the Messianic age, all this will be clear to all, hopefully we can then laugh about our silly little verbal limitations here.

[WVNan]

There is a group in Texas called The Christian Jew Foundation that puts out a great little paper, "Message of The Christian Jew" It is so very informative on things Jewish and it's relationship to Christianity. I've learned so much from it. Anyone who is interested, can visit the site at http://www.cjf.org
BTW, this article is a bunch of horse manure.

[razorbak]

Under the guise of ‘Jews for Jesus’ and ‘Hebrew Christians,’ a new threat of spiritual terrorism has emerged in the form of ‘messianic congregations,’ whose theological tenets are identical to the Christian fundamentalists who created them. Their ultimate goal is the eradication of the Jewish people through assimilation to Christianity.

What hysterical foolishness. Their organizations are not a "guise," they tell you exactly what they are. "Spiritual terrorism"-- pulleese--spare us the demagoguery. Their ultimate goal is to witness to everyone about their faith in Christ--not to eradicate Jewish people. What venemous billious crock.

Could it be that their zeal might be due to the fact that their Messiah, a Jew, Jesus Christ of Nazareth commanded them:

Matt.28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations} 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Rom.1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Christianity gives its followers a mandate to preach the gospel or witness to every person on the faith of the earth. And that we will do. If we made an exception for Jews, we would be anti-Semitic, not the other way around. Anyone has the freedom to share his faith, and anyone has the freedom to reject or to accept the message.

[Liberty Belle]

Ping

[cookcounty]

"g. He says in his p.6 that the MJ's (and thus by implic Christians).."worship Jesus"... a troubling formulation a Christian would never use...We worship God, one God, and Jesus only as and to the extent that he was an avatar or apparition of that God...a revelation of Him...Just as the Holy Spirit is an aspect or "side" or "part" from our limited human perspective, of God...he has revealed himself to man in those three ways...."

This "avatar" and "apparition" business is pretty far out of the mainstream of historic Christianity, or, for that matter, "Messianic Judaism." Jesus, Yeshua, has historically been understood as "fully God" and "fully man," though I'm sure it is possible to find, on occasion, variants...these would have to be called "christian heresies," under the title of "Docetism."

[cookcounty]

If only there was a billion dollars being spent! Outreach to Jews remains the poor stepchild of evangelical missions.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Thought you might find this article interesting.

[crystalk]

As you see from my comments, I don't much care for the tone of the article either, but it is still on such a vital subject that I went ahead and posted it warts and all. To get something out here to educate the FReepers on something important.

For an example of Messianic believers who really ARE believing and practicing Judaism, as well as EXCELLENT thoughts on a hundred subjects including Waco, see the Nazarene Judaism website and books of James Trimm, Society for Nazarene Judaism, Dallas, Tex. www.nazarene.net, or anything involving Trimm, Nazarene J, etc.

[onedoug]

Thanks. I'll check it out. And I'll look back on this thread later this evening as it seems to have some more potential to get even more interesting.

[crystalk]

Again, I warned you I was going to use today's conversational English, and depart from frozen creedal language. My formulation probably could be improved slightly, but that is what Trinitarianism looks like if you get it out of the 4th century Greek of the Nicene creed.

The key point is; ONE God, not three.

Jesus was fully man, but also a manifesting of God and his nature and message to the world...as well as the early brief prior appearance of Mashiach, who at the end will reappear as the afikomen or "dessert," to rule all nations and usher in the Messianic age. May that be soon is my prayer.