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Famed Harvard Biologist Gould Dies
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20020520/ap_on_re_us/obit_gould ^ | 5/20/02 | yahoo

Posted on 05/20/2002 12:53:27 PM PDT by rpage3

See source for details....


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: exmarine
question to catholics

"Catholics" is a proper noun and should be capitalized.

441 posted on 05/21/2002 10:40:05 AM PDT by Junior
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To: 1/1,000,000th%
Was Gould a vegetarian? I notice a lot of the cancer deaths around my area are people who are vegetarians or are on low fat diets.

Is their some sort of study out there that finds the correlation to be causal?

442 posted on 05/21/2002 10:40:59 AM PDT by JediGirl
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To: Junior
Wouldn't that depend upon the group?

Yes, according to your ad hoc definition. Thus, by your definition it was "moral" for certain Teutonics to do certain things to certain Semites. It was for the children.

443 posted on 05/21/2002 10:42:41 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: exmarine
Is that how you perceive the world? Sad. Clearly, "might makes right" does not work because it makes no distinction between power and goodness. Do you make a distinction between the two?

Even without some great [moral] dictator, yes, there are morals within the society. There are norms to which everybody conforms to keep society running efficiently.

444 posted on 05/21/2002 10:43:59 AM PDT by JediGirl
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To: Mortin Sult
YOur questions are poor comparisons. Clearly asteroids exist, but do scientists know how they were formed? I doubt you can be dogmatic about their origin. Similarly, we have complex life on earth - e.g. humans beings. You PRESUME that change occurred via p.e. but there is no evidence for this at all. It is merely your PRESUMPTION based upon your own naturalistic worldview. Real science requires observation and repeatability. You have cited nothing as evidence for p.e. Comets have nothing to do with it certainly.

Maybe we should close the windows in the maternity wards, lest our offspring fly out the window...hmmm?

445 posted on 05/21/2002 10:43:59 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: exmarine
When was the last time you attended Catholic school? They ALL teach evolution which deals directly with human origins. As I have cleary demonstrated, you can't separate the bible and evolution without falling into hopeless contradiction - as catholic schools have done.

Never attended one. But I'll take your word for it. That's my understanding as well.

Not everything that's taught in Catholic school is Catholic dogma. Dogmatic Catholic Church teaching regarding human origins can be found in the following documents:

Humani Generis

Media Twists Papal Statement on Evolution

Evolution: What the Pope Said [in 1996]

The two articles addressing the distortion of the Pope's comments regarding theories [plural!] of evolution is very important. And if you can club some sense into some Catholic school principals I'm all for it. You might want to direct them to arn.org

446 posted on 05/21/2002 10:44:04 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: jlogajan; exmarine
So "perfect love" is throwing Jews, Hindus, Muslims, pagans and every other religion into eternal hell fires?

What basis does evolution provide jlogajan to condemn any belief whatever, since all beliefs are nothing but the result of chemical and physical forces in the first place? What could possibly be "wrong" with a neurochemical, physical phenmomenon in an impersonal universe that is nothing but physical forces at work? What could possibly be wrong with a physical force? Exmarine is nothing but a concatenation of physical forces. Is jlogajan implying that examarine has some moral or empistemological duty imposed on exmarine by this impersonal universe to 'believe' certain things, or not to 'believe' certain propositions? What basis other than neurochemical reactions in jlogajan brain could there possibly be for believing that ANY product of evolution (which by definition is EVERYTHING, including examarine and exmarine belief) is "wrong", or even dysfunctional, as signified by the words "crazy, sick freaks"?

By defintion, NO evolutionary process is dysfunctional.

Cordially,

447 posted on 05/21/2002 10:48:50 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: JediGirl
Is their some sort of study out there that finds the correlation to be causal?

I've seen some that suggest that, but I'm on an anecdotal basis for my question. I've never attempted a literature search on the topic.

I did a search on the link between red meat and heart disease and discovered that most of well done studies suggest that red meat greatly reduces the risk of heart disease, with the caveat that you don't want to be greatly overweight. Beef being such rich food that a 10-ounce steak every day isn't necessary.

448 posted on 05/21/2002 10:51:21 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Junior
How are individual rights done away with?

Let's go back to the relevant part of your definition:

Morality is the complex interplay between the needs of the individual and the needs of the group, with the group's long-term needs taking precedence over the individual's short term needs.

This says that individual rights exist only so long as the needs of the individual are congruent with those of the group. This is not always the case, and by this definition it may be morally permissible to sacrifice one or many members of the group in support of the long-term group interests. IOW, individuals have no "unalienable rights." The "lifeboat problem" suggests that the needs of the starving many can be served by killing and eating the tastiest-looking one.

Groups are made of individuals and the group must recognize the needs, indeed the "rights" of the individuals within it or it ceases to function (cf., the Soviet Union).

This does not offer any way for us to call the USSR "wrong" other than that it didn't succeed. At any rate, individual rights do not follow from the group's "recognition of needs and rights" does , except perhaps in a conditional sense. For example, the ruling groups of ancient Rome, Egypt, and even the U.S. South survived very nicely, even though they relied for their success on the conquest and/or enslavement of others. (The jury is still out on China.)

449 posted on 05/21/2002 10:51:49 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: JediGirl
Who comes up with what's moral? Whoever has the most power? In a democracy the people...in a dictatorship, the dictator. Scary, but unfortunately true.

You're not a libertarian, are you?

450 posted on 05/21/2002 10:54:38 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: JediGirl
Who comes up with what's moral? Whoever has the most power? In a democracy the people...in a dictatorship, the dictator.

So, suppose you were living in the NAZI era and a Jewish person comes to you for refuge. What should you do, if by definition whatever society says at any given time is right?

Cordially

451 posted on 05/21/2002 10:55:04 AM PDT by Diamond
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To: r9etb
...................and if i am?
452 posted on 05/21/2002 10:55:52 AM PDT by JediGirl
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To: Diamond
So, suppose you were living in the NAZI era and a Jewish person comes to you for refuge. What should you do, if by definition whatever society says at any given time is right?

You do what you feel is right. If that defies society, then you must take the heat for your actions.

453 posted on 05/21/2002 10:57:10 AM PDT by JediGirl
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To: AndrewC
Did their actions promote the survival of their group? An argument can be made that the Teutonic group's actions were ultimately detrimental to its survival -- hell, it didn't even last a single generation.
454 posted on 05/21/2002 10:57:26 AM PDT by Junior
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To: JediGirl
...................and if i am?

Then among other things you'd have no logical basis for your opposition to intrusive government, imposition of force, and all those other things that libertarians get so spun up about.

455 posted on 05/21/2002 10:59:51 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Diamond
By defintion, NO evolutionary process is dysfunctional.

What about detrimental mutations? Evolution accounts for them nicely, but does not claim they are not dysfunctional. Methinks you made that up by yourself.

456 posted on 05/21/2002 10:59:58 AM PDT by Junior
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To: r9etb
then among other things you'd have no logical basis for your opposition to intrusive government, imposition of force, and all those other things that libertarians get so spun up about.

other than the fact that it is against the interest of all for the government to dictate your life. in the current system, more can be gained through a less obtrusive and smaller government.

457 posted on 05/21/2002 11:05:12 AM PDT by JediGirl
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To: Junior
Did their actions promote the survival of their group? An argument can be made that the Teutonic group's actions were ultimately detrimental to its survival -- hell, it didn't even last a single generation.

True enough, though that can be traced more to a few remarkably bad military decisions on the part of the Teutonic group's leadership, than in anything intrinsically wrong with their attempt to exterminate the Semitic group.

458 posted on 05/21/2002 11:06:38 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb
This says that individual rights exist only so long as the needs of the individual are congruent with those of the group.

No. This definition states that an individual's short-term needs take a back seat to the group's long-term needs. Rights are not necessarily defined as a short-term need. Hell, rights are usually defined as that which, when exercised by an individual, invokes no obligation on the part of anyone else. In other words, individual rights should never conflict with the survival of the group (and most probably should contribute to that survival). That is why there is no "right" to housing, or medical care, or even food. One does have a right to voice one's opinions, but that doesn't mean others have to listen.

Needs, on the other hand, are things like food, shelter, sex -- that whole hierarchy thing I remember from psychology class. Sometimes the individual's needs will conflict with the group's survival (sex, for instance -- the individual sees this as a need, but rape and adultery place strains upon the group and because of this need to be discouraged).

459 posted on 05/21/2002 11:08:18 AM PDT by Junior
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To: JediGirl
My point is that evolution, as a process, is a theory that does not lend itself to the scientific method of experimentation, and predictable replication in a laboratory or even a natural setting. No one has ever seen evolution in action (and Pepper Moths in England turning from light gray to dark gray is not an example of evolution, even though public school text books still use them as such). Scientists look at things like the morphology of living species, unique environmental conditions, the fossil record, and so forth, and have come up with evolution as an explanation for how various species have arisen from lower life forms. But that's all it is: an explanation. There is no proof. It cannot be observed. To look at the variety of "evidence" and come up with the theory of evolution as it's understood requires the adoption of certain assumptions as true. Punctuated equlibrium is based on the assumption that evolution happened -- that it's true -- but that the classic theory was inconsistent with the evidence in the fossil record. What Gould did wasn't question the classic theory of evolution, but come up with an addendum which explains the inconsistencies. From a pure logical perspective, this tact was dishonest. If physical evidence contradicts or causes huge problems for the theory of evolution (a theory, again, which has never been proven), isn't questioning the validity of the theory the logical thing to do? You commented, "Science is based in observation, acquired knowledge that can be tested." My comment is that evolution doesn't lend itself to the testing that you refer to.

Because of it's nature -- that evolution can't be observed, cannot be tested in the laboratory -- evolution is based on faith, or requires a blind leap to have it hold together. That's what I meant in it being akin to religion for the ardent evolutionist. And, again, the stridency with which they defend the theory (a theory which lacks proof and cannot be submitted to the scientific method) is analogous to the fervency of religionists. In point of fact, many evolutionist are secular humanists (not all, but many). They claim not to have a religion, but indeed secular humanism is their religion.

As to the quote that "[Punctuated Equilibrium] no more proves Darwin wrong than Einsteinian relativity proves Newton wrong," I never suggested that Gould's theory disproved Darwin. What it does is attempt to prop-up some aspects of evolution that were sagging under the weight of conflicting evidence (the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record).

460 posted on 05/21/2002 11:08:31 AM PDT by My2Cents
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