The Assault on the Boy Scouts of America (May Imprimis)

Imprimis | May02 | Midge Decter

[StACase]

No, but you make the point that he was kicked out for who he was and not any misbehavior on his part.

Smart move, why wait around for it to happen

And you make it clear that 'morally straight' can mean whatever it is convenient for it to mean.

And your morals are convenient with respect to your politics of deviant behavior. So what?

Finally, let me make it clear that I have no problem with the Boy Scouts as a private organization establishing their own standards for who they will admit as scouts and scout leaders and who they will not. That is their right and nobody can or should be able to take that away from them.

Oh but your side of the aisle sure as hell wants to. You say you don't, but I don't believe you for a second.

But I find it pretty dumb on their part that apparently they could assume that people wouldn't find their discrimination objectionable and this whole thing would blow over.

Some people do and others do not.

What did they expect?

They expected to not find themselves in the mess that the Roman Catholic Church in this country is now "unexpectedly" experiencing

[3catsanadog]

We need to work on listing links here of stories of abuse committed by Boy Scout leaders to the youth in their care.

[StACase]

We need to work on listing links here of stories of abuse committed by Boy Scout leaders to the youth in their care.

Oh yeah, I bet I'm gonna find the main stream media just full of that! Yeah I'm sure every such story about
Scout Masters "doing" Boy Scouts is going to be prominently reported on. I'm gonna start looking right now!
< /sarcasm >

[yendu bwam]

I have no problem with someone who is gay being in the BSA

I do. There are many honorable homosexual men. However, the majority of homosexual men engage in sexual practices that most people consider extremely deviant (anal intercourse, sadomasochistic practices, sexual practices involving urine and feces, promiscuous sex with many anonymous partners). Further, a very large subset of homosexual men have clear and strong sexual attraction to teenage boys (witness the Catholic Church scandals, the rampant teenage boy prostitution in New York City, the sexual pictures of teenage boys on almost all homosexual pornographic websites, etc.). Finally, teenage boys in Boy Scouts frequently talk about girls, dating, and yes, sex. Don't want my sons' scoutmaster to start talking about sex from a homosexual point of view. Basically, don't want my sons to even have to think about homosexuality AT ALL on any scouting activity. In sum, it's dangerous and totally inappropriate for Boy Scout scoutmasters to be homosexual. Homosexuals have their rights - but they DO NOT INCLUDE being in close quarters with my sons, or teaching my sons their (disordered) ideas about sexuality.

[Non-Sequitur]

They expected to not find themselves in the mess that the Roman Catholic Church in this country is now "unexpectedly" experiencing

But in both cases it is a mess of their own making. If they didn't expect it to make headlines then they were pretty stupid, weren't they?

[leadpenny]

I understand what you are saying and I assume you have younger children. I remember those days when my boys were little and I wanted to protect them from the world. Can't be done. In my #11 when I said they just need to shut up I was trying to imply that gays (and heterosexuals for that matter) need to leave that part of their life outside.

I know I'll probably get another argument started but somewhere between 95 and 99% of the male flight attendants on US carriers are gay. My experience has been that, as a group, male flight attendants are better than females and no one I know complains about them being gay. They have a job to do, and as long as they are not doing something inappropriate, they should be allowed to continue. What do you bet that the average teenage boy riding on an airplane knows all of this instinctively.

People should be dealt with for what they do, not for what they are or might do. Of course, if someone wants to be a scoutmaster because they are gay or an existing scoutmaster starts advertising their preferences, gay or straight, they should be rejected.

[yendu bwam]

I know I'll probably get another argument started but somewhere between 95 and 99% of the male flight attendants on US carriers are gay. My experience has been that, as a group, male flight attendants are better than females and no one I know complains about them being gay. They have a job to do, and as long as they are not doing something inappropriate, they should be allowed to continue.

I agree with you in that I have no problem with homosexual flight attendants. BUT, homosexual flight attendants are not charged with taking my teenage sons on distant overnight camping trips where they will be in close quarters (tents, showers, swimming pool locker rooms) with my sons and sometimes in my absence. Further, when my sons are just beginning to have sexual feelings and to understand the basics of normal (that is, man/woman) sexuality, I certainly don't want an authority figure around them who promotes and encourages a perverted and dangerous sexuality. You would discharge a homosexual flight attendant as long as he does something inappropriate. I WILL NOT take the chance that something inappropriate happens to my sons, which could seriously damage their psyches and souls. Putting a homosexual man in charge of a Boy Scout troop is like putting an alcholic in charge of a liquor store. He might resist temptation, but it would be difficult. Again, I WILL NOT take that chance with my teenage sons. Their well-being and safety is far important to me that the potentially hurt feelings of a homosexual man. A homosexual man has no inherent right to be part of the upbringing of my kids.

[yendu bwam]

But you miss the concept at work here. He is not wanted as a leader in the Boy Scouts for the same reason that normal young men are not recruited to be leaders in the Girl Scouts. Sending a young man to go camping in the woods alone with young girls is not a good idea. And....I don't really have to spell this out do I?

For a lot of people, you DO need to spell it out. Not wanting a homosexual scoutmaster for your sons, just as you do not want a male (heterosexual) scoutmaster for your teenage daughters is just common sense. It is NOT bigotry or hate. Again, homosexual scoutmasters (who in many cases do feel sexual attraction to teenage boys) have no business being Boy Scout scoutmasters or around anybody's teenage sons. I you don't understand this, just ask all those Catholic parents who let their teenage sons pal around for hours at a time with their local priests.

[KC_for_Freedom]

Would he have been kicked out of scouting if the troop leadership found out that he was living with a girlfriend rather than finding out he was homosexual?

It is a good question. It definitely depends on the local organization. Several scouts in our troop went on a crime spree, (broke and looted a vending machine). For this they were put on a years probation by the scouts. (One had his application for Annapolis pulled by the school.) These were considered fitting punishments, and one of the boys went on to receive his Eagle after the suspension. The other boy left the scouts and did not complete his final rank.

I believe the offense you name, living with a woman outside of marriage, would very likely be enough in most troops to warrent the suspension or expulsion of the assistant scoutmaster from the organization. There, you have your answer. (Not what you expected?)

[leadpenny]

I hear ya. The best we can hope for is a 'don't ask, don't tell' approach to things, and that inappropriate behavior would be dealt with to the full extent of the law. Beyond that, unless people voluntarily disclose their proclivities, each troop would have to go on a witch hunt. I do applaud you in being involved with your children. Making your child aware to the workings of the world is yours and their best protection.

[yendu bwam]

I hear ya. The best we can hope for is a 'don't ask, don't tell' approach to things, and that inappropriate behavior would be dealt with to the full extent of the law. Beyond that, unless people voluntarily disclose their proclivities, each troop would have to go on a witch hunt. I do applaud you in being involved with your children. Making your child aware to the workings of the world is yours and their best protection.

Thanks. Believe or not, I respect homosexuals (or anyone else's) right to live their lives as they see fit. And agree, don't want witch hunts.

[Non-Sequitur]

No, what I have is your opinion of what should happen and I respect you for being even handed in your judgement of what constitutes 'morally straight'. But that is not the position of the Scout leadership and since they apparently decide what each individual troop may or may not do in cases like this it is their opinion that matters. I also find it interesting that a felony draws a years probation but Jim Dale got banned for life.

[yendu bwam]

But I find it pretty dumb on their part that apparently they could assume that people wouldn't find their discrimination objectionable and this whole thing would blow over. What did they expect?

I assure you that the Boy Scouts knew perfectly well that this would not just blow over. They knew exactly what would happen given their past decisions to disallow (i.e. discriminate against) atheists and women. When I send my sons on a Boy Scout trip, I can be fairly assured that the leaders are going to be male, are not likely to promote homosexual values or try to engage in sexual behavior with my sons (because avowed homosexuals are not allowed), and that these leaders will promote and encourage a belief in God. I and hundreds of thousands of others say 'Bravo' to the Boy Scouts for being discriminating. Homosexuals are entitled to their own way of life and beliefs. They can start their own scouting organization anytime they want.

[techcor]

Boy Scouts are part of Scouting International. President Bush should try to get the leaders of Afghanistan and Pakistan to start their own scout organizations to keep boys out of trouble in those countries. Plus . What a photo-op when one of those leaders comes over with the head scouts from their countries to meet our President and the head of the B.o.A.

[Clint N. Suhks]

Would James Dale have been kicked out if, instead of being homosexual, he had been living with a girlfriend at college?

And made his SM, CC or COR aware of it? Yep! It’s happened before and will again.

[Clint N. Suhks]

The only way that the troop leadership found out about it was because he was interviewed in the course of an article about his membership in a gay and lesbian group at his college.

You mean when his picture appeared in the news paper marching in a gay sad pride humiliation parade? That’s like saying if he stood outside a troop meeting holding a sign that said “I practice perversion” and said nothing about his sexuality perversion and never discussed it during activities his sexual orientation perversion was never connected. You make no sense.

[Clint N. Suhks]

you make it clear that 'morally straight' can mean whatever it is convenient for it to mean.

Spoken like a true pro-perversion flak without the facts. Do you really think James West thought the practice of perversion was "morally straight" when he added those words to the Scout Oath in 1914? You’re seriously deluded.

[Non-Sequitur]

How can it, unless the central headquarters mandates it? Individual Boy Scout troops cannot set membership or leadership requirements. Only the home office can do that.

[Clint N. Suhks]

Individual Boy Scout troops cannot set membership or leadership requirements.

Wrong again!

[Non-Sequitur]

The why are all the Scout Troops that do not want to follow the guidlines regarding homosexuals being told that they are losing their troop charter? If what you say is true then the individual troops should be able to let in whoever they want.