Army's new helicopter cannot fire missiles [UK]

Telegraph [UK] ^ | 3-25-02

[jordan8]

(Filed: 25/03/2002)

THE Army's new Apache attack helicopter cannot fire its Hellfire anti-tank missiles for fear that debris ejected on launching could cause catastrophic damage. The problem is confirmed by a Ministry of Defence document leaked to The Telegraph.

The MoD was unable to say how much damage could be caused. It was working with the makers to solve the problem, officials said.

But defence sources said there were serious concerns that the debris could damage the main or tail rotors, causing the helicopter to crash.

The Army is buying 67 Apache helicopters. They are being built in Britain by Westland under licence from the US manufacturers Boeing.

The US has restricted its Apache helicopters to firing missiles only during wartime and to launching them only from the right-hand side of the aircraft to try to ensure that the debris does not hit the tail rotor which is on the left-hand side.

The WAH-64 Apache, which is due to take over the anti-tank role currently performed by about a quarter of the Army's Challenger 2 tanks in three years' time, normally carries a total of eight Hellfire missiles, four on each side.

The problem comes amid worrying signs from Afghanistan that the helicopter, which is seen as providing devastating frontline firepower, may not be as effective as was hoped, particularly in hot, dusty conditions.

Five out of the seven Apache attack helicopters sent to attack al-Qa'eda terrorists during Operation Anaconda two weeks ago were disabled by machinegun fire or ancient Soviet RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenade launchers fired from the ground.

The five helicopters had to be taken back to the US base at Bagram, north of Kabul, and replaced by new aircraft flown out from America.

Charles Heyman, editor of Jane's World Armies, said yesterday that there were also serious problems with sand and dust getting into the engines.

"In northern Europe you would expect to have around 90 per cent serviceability for these aircraft," he said. "But we are hearing reports that in Afghanistan it may be as low as 60 per cent."

The introduction of the Army Air Corp's first operational Apache squadron has already been delayed by at least eight months by software problems with the Full Mission simulator that will train the pilots.

The Apache problem is the latest in a series of embarrassing equipment problems to hit the forces. The SA-80 rifle had to be modified at a cost of £80 million after it consistently jammed on operations in Kosovo and Sierra Leone.

And the 12-year Bowman project to replace Army radio sets that dated back to the Falklands was abandoned 18 months ago. Soldiers operating in the Balkans were forced to use their mobile telephones to contact each other.

During the Kosovo campaign the RAF ran out of precision guided weapons that could bomb through clouds.

[FreedomPoster]

This doesn't smell right. AH-64 Apaches have been firing Hellfire missles for years, and this is the first this has come up that I know of. Also, any dust ingestion problems should have been remedied in the Gulf War, where they were used extensively. The first attack in the air campaign in the Gulf War was by some Apaches that used Hellfires to take out some SAM/radar sites near the Saudi/Kuwait border. F-117's flew down the corridor created to continue with deeper strikes against SAM/radar/C3I targets.

Also, I'll buy Apaches taken out by machine gun fire. There are plenty of Soviet 12.7 mm machine guns floating around, which are the Soviet equivalent of the Ma Deuce (M2 Browning HMG), and are a fine anti-helicopter weapon. But RPG's? WTH would an Apache be doing close enough to Taliban forces to get hit with a short range RPG? If that's really the case, it's poor placement/utilization of the asset.

[fourdeuce82d]

the helicopter, which is seen as providing devastating frontline firepower, may not be as effective as was hoped, particularly in hot, dusty conditions.

I'd think altitude would be more of an issue. The ingestion problem does sound odd, given the number of missiles that have been fired off the aircraft in the past.

Mr. T?

[TADSLOS]

First of all, understand that the UK bought the rights to build the AH-64D from Boeing. Same airframe, different engines (Rolls Royce) and drive trains. Secondly, I'll bet dollars to a donut that they're referring to 2.75" rockets, not the Hellfire. The Hellfire has a rocket motor embedded in the missile body and doesn't emit "debris" of any signifigance. Rockets, on the other hand, can and do. The U.S. Army has had trouble with certain lots of rocket motors in the past and still have some restrictions on their use, but is a transient problem.

The A model Apaches in Afghanistan were hit with RPGs, but stayed in the fight, contrary to innacurate press reporting. One aircraft took a direct hit in the TADS bucket (front sight) but kept firing it's weapons, supporting ground troops. Another aircraft took a direct hit by and RPG in an engine, destroying the engine and damaging the transmission. The aircraft flew single engine 38 minutes back to Bagram on a dry transmission and got the crew back alive.

[Cicero]

Good details. Many thanks.

[AppyPappy]

The Soviet 14.5mm AA gun is also a problem. The round is a former anti-tank round from WW2.

[FreedomPoster]

Then I stand by my comment on poor asset placement, or perhaps poor battlefield intelligence (don't know where the enemy is located). These guys should be out of range of RPG's.

[Free the USA]

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