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1 posted on 03/05/2002 10:25:19 AM PST by dware (davidw@abqdowns.com)
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To: dware
America was not actually founded as a Christian Nation. It is, however, deeply rooted in Biblical and Christian principles.

You put the cart before the horse. Biblical and Christian principles are founded on pre-existing concepts and human nature. There are many "good" civilized ideas that pre-date Christianity.

2 posted on 03/05/2002 10:39:55 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: dware
Excellent post :)
3 posted on 03/05/2002 10:44:40 AM PST by Jefferson Adams
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To: dware
Contrary to what would be convenient to your thesis on the foundations of our form of government, the elders and representatives of the Hebrews did not discuss the laws of God (Ex. 19:7) or vote on them (Ex. 19:8). Moses presented the laws bestowed upon him to the people and they bowed subserviently to them as the written word of God. (A God, by the way, who demanded total submission. Not unlike a dictator, albiet the ultimate benevolent dictator.)

Sorry.

4 posted on 03/05/2002 10:47:01 AM PST by foolish-one
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To: dware
Hey Brother! Wonderful read both in historical content and God's rightly divided word. I was contemplating posting on freerepublic a request for web sites that offer biblical word searches . . . and then God inspired you to post.

. . . every jot and tittle . . .

<><
5 posted on 03/05/2002 10:47:22 AM PST by w_over_w
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To: dware
The most glaring resemblance is the similarities between our American Republic and the Hebrew/Christian Republic set up during Moses' time.

Please explain further Moses' "Hebrew/Christian Republic." The strength of the author to inform and persuade is greatly diminished, when easy targets like this are introduced in the article.

8 posted on 03/05/2002 10:51:33 AM PST by truth_seeker
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To: dware
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
--- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
--- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
--Thomas Jefferson, Bill for Establishing Religious Liberty in Virginia 1779

Our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry
--Thomas Jefferson, Bill for Establishing Religious Liberty in Virginia 1779

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
--- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."
--- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
--- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
--- Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy, absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
--- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
--- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
--- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
--- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine."
--- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
--- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

. In fact, it is comfortable to see the standard of reason at length erected, after so many ages, during which the human mind has been held in vassalage by kings, priests, and nobles; and it is honorable for us, to have produced the first legislature who had the courage to declare, that the reason of man may be trusted with the formation of his own opinions....
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison from Paris, Dec. 16, 1786.

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
--James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance,"

The law has the further advantage of having been the result of a formal appeal to the sense of the Community and a deliberate sanction of a vast majority, comprizing [sic] every sect of Christians in the State. This act is a true standard of Religious liberty; its principle the great barrier agst [against] usurpations on the rights of conscience. As long as it is respected & no longer, these will be safe. Every provision for them short of this principle, will be found to leave crevices, at least thro' which bigotry may introduce persecution; a monster, that feeding & thriving on its own venom, gradually swells to a size and strength overwhelming all laws divine & human.
--James Madison, "Monopolies. Perpetuities. Corporations. Ecclesiastical Endowments,"

Is conformity of sentiments in matters of religion essential to the happiness of civil government? Not at all. Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of the mathematics. Let every man speak freely without fear--maintain the principles that he believes--worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God, or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse or loss of property for his religious opinions. Instead of discouraging him with proscriptions, fines, confiscation or death, let him be encouraged, as a free man, to bring forth his arguments and maintain his points with all boldness; then if his doctrine is false it will be confuted, and if it is true (though ever so novel) let others credit it. When every man has this liberty what can he wish for more? A liberal man asks for nothing more of government.
--John Leland, "The Rights of Conscience Inalienable, and Therefore Religious Opinions not Cognizable by Law" [a pamphlet], New London, Connecticut, 1791.

As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith.
--Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776.

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."
--Ben Franklin 1790

Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin, 1790

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
--John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" 1787-

and finally......

It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses....
--John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" 1787

20 posted on 03/05/2002 11:30:46 AM PST by OWK
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To: dware
Nice Job. I was just starting a similar narrative. I need to send you some FR mail.
24 posted on 03/05/2002 12:11:35 PM PST by STD
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To: dware
Bookmarked for later read.
41 posted on 03/06/2002 5:42:19 AM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: dware
bump for later read
43 posted on 03/06/2002 5:51:47 AM PST by The Mayor
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To: dware
There are those who will say that the U.S. Constitution grew out of this or that civilization -- but they are dead wrong. The principles of the U.S. Constitution were the culmination of 1750 years of governing and administering the affairs of churches throughout Europe and Christianized Asia.

The ability to "govern" was one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit of God. Churches established their own rules for self-governance, electing leaders and appointing administrators with limited authority that were accountable to both God and the people of that church.

Self governence was practiced by the first churches found in the New Testament for they served the Son of God whose word said "the government shall be upon his shoulders". It may very well be that these charters were an expression of what was the "binding and loosing" authority that Jesus gave to Peter and the Apostles, Paul and the NT church.

Anyway, a constitutional or chartered self-government by those affected by that government came from self-governing churches of the Waldensians, Albigenses, some Greek churches, and the Reformation churches.

Lessons learned in these churches about how best to govern and administer were subsequently incorporated in the charters of all of the American colonies and then their later state constitutions, most of which required that officeholders pledge allegiance to the Christian religion and the Bible as the Word of God.

These state governments, descended from lessons of church governance in England and parts of Europe, were supposed to be the foundation of the new federal government of America -- and were -- but as people forgot their Bibles and what it t means, they have subsequently forgotten their Constitution and what it means.

The backbone of the Constitution is the Scriptures and the people who believe therein. As people have turned from the Scriptures, they have lost their backbone.

51 posted on 03/06/2002 6:29:34 AM PST by Woodkirk
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