Posted on 03/05/2002 10:25:19 AM PST by dware
My point is that assertions that "the founders" intended the newly emerging republic to be "biblical" in it's foundations, or "Christian" at it's core, are blanket statements which attempt to characterize "the founders" as a collective being of one mind.
Clearly this was not the case. "The founders" opinions were widely varied and considerably at odds on many issues including religious faith and it's role in government. Some of the most prominent among the American founders were deists, placing no particular value in the Bible or in Christianity. Some were devout Christians, and wished to install the Christian faith as a cornerstone of the republic. Still others, were devout Christians who rightly recognized the inherent dangers in the intermingling of faith and government, and warned strongly against it.
In short, I approach all assertion which claim to characterize the mind of "the founders", with great suspicion. "The founders" were not one mind, but many.
This is a beautiful quote by Adams! Moreover, I think it really illustrates the fact that we allknow God works in mysterious ways.
The substance of many of your quotes is that the Founding Father's believed they had done a very good job at creating a government that would not, and could not interfere with religious establishments. And in the quote above, Adams takes it a step further to say that the government was the result of reson and the senses.
However, are you aware that, aside from being a student of law, Adams was also a student of religious studies? During the founding of the Nation, a great many individuals were strongly grounded in the Christian faith, and it was never a big deal to them. You cannot tell me, after looking at Adam's background, that faith in no way played into or had influence upon, his 'reasoning and senses' when it came right down to it!
As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith. --Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776.
I think it is quite obvious what Paine is saying here. It is the duty of the government to protect EVERYONE, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, and that the government should have no other say in religious matters.
That still does not disprove my thesis that the foundations of America are deeply rooted in Biblical principles, of which many of the Founding Fathers were well schooled in.
You see, my argument here is simply that the foundations of American government can be found in the Bible. The similarities are too striking to overlook when one gets deep into it. I am not trying to say that the Founding Father's wanted this to be a Christian Nation, which I think is what you are arguing against. If you reread my article, you will find that I stated that right out - Contrary to what some might argue, America was not actually founded as a Christian Nation. It is, however, deeply rooted in Biblical and Christian principles.
It would seem that Adams would disagree. He (even as a Christian) recognized the American government as a product of reason and the senses, and not heavenly or biblical infulences.
I'm sure your testimony impresses somebody, anybody, little children, whatever. Thing is, though, I could get the same sort of testimony in support of Jim Jones, or Mohammed or Athena or whomsoever from one of their followers.
Ya got anything else? Like evidence? Proof?
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To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. However, there did preceed the Bible and Christianity various philosophies and philosophers. These ideas influenced the bible writers and also continued on in parallel.
If the proposition is that Christianity influenced western civilization, the answer is probably yes. If the proposition is that a US like government could not exist without Christianity, not only is the case not proven, but there are many historical examples of democracies (as opposed to tyrannies) that pre-date Christianity.
But most of what you quoted seems to be warnings and exortations to be watchful and try to prevent just such corruption as opposed to supporting or refuting the contention that the founding fathers' believed that our rights were/are conferred divinely. That's my point.
That's all.
The ability to "govern" was one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit of God. Churches established their own rules for self-governance, electing leaders and appointing administrators with limited authority that were accountable to both God and the people of that church.
Self governence was practiced by the first churches found in the New Testament for they served the Son of God whose word said "the government shall be upon his shoulders". It may very well be that these charters were an expression of what was the "binding and loosing" authority that Jesus gave to Peter and the Apostles, Paul and the NT church.
Anyway, a constitutional or chartered self-government by those affected by that government came from self-governing churches of the Waldensians, Albigenses, some Greek churches, and the Reformation churches.
Lessons learned in these churches about how best to govern and administer were subsequently incorporated in the charters of all of the American colonies and then their later state constitutions, most of which required that officeholders pledge allegiance to the Christian religion and the Bible as the Word of God.
These state governments, descended from lessons of church governance in England and parts of Europe, were supposed to be the foundation of the new federal government of America -- and were -- but as people forgot their Bibles and what it t means, they have subsequently forgotten their Constitution and what it means.
The backbone of the Constitution is the Scriptures and the people who believe therein. As people have turned from the Scriptures, they have lost their backbone.
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more that half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a daemon that the word of God. It...has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics. As an engine of power it serves the purpose of despotism; and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests; but so far as respects the good of man in general, it leads to nothing here or hereafter."
from The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine
17 As Jesus was walking down a road, a man ran up to him. He knelt down, and asked, “Good teacher, what can I do to have eternal life?” 18 Jesus replied, “Why do you call me good? Only God is good.
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