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To: Jerry_M, ccwoody, rnmomof7, orthodoxpresbyterian, ward smythe, forthedeclaration, aggressive calv
Now can we get the Arminian objection in one sentence?

Jerry, now don't get nervous. I was gonna get to that. Let's get tulip spelled out first. Do you accept orthopresby's definition?

U - condensation

U Unconditional Election Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8). This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism. The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.

Unconditional Election: BEFORE CREATION GOD HAS ELECTED FOR HIS OWN REASONS SOME FOR BELIEVING UNTO GLORY AND SOME FOR DAMNATION.

Will you all accept this as an acceptable condensation of "U"?

292 posted on 02/27/2002 12:42:07 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins, the_doc, Jerry_M, CCWoody, RnMomof7, Jean Chauvin
Now can we get the Arminian objection in one sentence? ~~ Jerry, now don't get nervous. I was gonna get to that. Let's get tulip spelled out first.

Nope. It's all about the "T".

Speaking on behalf of the Calvinists, we will respectfully refuse to consider further points of the Remonstration (the 5-point debate) until our definition of the T is either disproven as Biblical, or accepted as Biblical.

This is a fair request, as if we are wrong on the T, it is unnecessary to procede further (our position would be demonstrably wrong).

Therefore, we request your objection, if any, to the doctrine of Total Depravity; or, your acknowledgement that the doctrine of Total Depravity is Biblically correct, as stated.

After we address that matter, we will proceed. But we respectfully insist upon a summary decision concerning Total Depravity before continuing with the case. And we are entitled to that eminently reasonable insistence.

Best,
OP

300 posted on 02/27/2002 12:50:52 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: xzins; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; RnMomof7
Unconditional Election: BEFORE CREATION GOD HAS ELECTED FOR HIS OWN REASONS SOME FOR BELIEVING UNTO GLORY AND SOME FOR DAMNATION.

Before the foundation of the world, God has elected, for the sake of His own glory out of the mass of those who hate Him, to glorification in Him; the rest He left in their God hating filth.

But, I probably will accept what OP and Jerry put forth.

301 posted on 02/27/2002 12:51:38 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: xzins; OrthodoxPresbyterian; the_doc; CCWoody; RnMomof7; Ward Smythe
"Unconditional Election: BEFORE CREATION GOD HAS ELECTED FOR HIS OWN REASONS SOME FOR BELIEVING UNTO GLORY AND SOME FOR DAMNATION."

Nope.

I would suggest: God has elected, in accordance with His own will, and without regard for the merit of those elected (due to the fact that they have none, they are "Totally Depraved"), some for salvation. The rest He has left in their sins. In all cases, He is glorified.

302 posted on 02/27/2002 12:52:48 PM PST by Jerry_M
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