Translation: I'm right, you're wrong. Not exactly open-minded are you, rw?
Well, it's not that easy, Kansas.
God wants all of His creation, mankind, to be with him in His kingdom for eternity but sin separates us from a righteous God. We cannot totally overcome sin as it enters into our thoughts as well as our deeds. The apostle Paul was well aware of this and wrote about it; you may have read his letter. Jesus is our savior as He paid the price of sin - spiritual death - for mankind. Mankind could not do it, only the perfect Christ could, and did. To claim that God 'predestined' only a portion of mankind to be with Him in paradise is incorrect in my view as it makes Christ's sacrifice unnecessary. Scripture states that He was 'raised up' (on the cross) so that he would draw all men to him. Jesus spoke of the 'narrow gate' (Christ) that leads to salvation and talked about the 'wide path' that leads to destruction (hell). If 'all men' were 'predestined' to either heaven or hell, who would need a path to follow? Christ made the point that mankind chooses which path to take, which is, ta-da...free will.
Mankind is born with free will - the ability to mentally and emotionally reject God and Christ, and many do. However, all human beings are called to God through many sources, including nature and it's reflection of God's hand. God's plan is for all to come to Him and he reveals Himself to us - often through His word - and opens the door to salvation during our lifetimes but most ignore it and will not accept the gift of salvation. That is free will.
'Predestination' is simply the fact that God choose all of mankind to be his children and live with him but our exercise of free will - God given - takes us away from Him. Our choice, not God's. At Judgement day, when our lives are examined and found wanting, only the blood of Christ will save us, not a human claim that we were 'predestined' to go to heaven so 'let me in'. On that great and fateful day, Jesus will say, "I know him" or "I know him not" but that choice will have been made by us, not God. We accept or reject Jesus Christ on our own. Attempting to 'blame' the creator for our eternal fate is foolish. To attempt to justify that point of view in order to absolve mankind of any complicity in his spiritual fate by cherry-picking scripture and offering 'proof verses' is to misuse scripture, in my opinion.
You are free to espouse any view you choose but issuing pronouncments that instruct those who hold a differing point of view to 'use your brain' and 'read your bible' do not persuade much less convince anyone of your depth of study on this spiritual and scriptual matter of overbearing importance. You might take your own advice.
A note: Reading some of the typical smug, mocking responses on this thread to an issue that has nothing to do with atheists but still draws them to a thread that is a discussion of spiritual matters they claim to find absurd and foolish is interesting. Human beings, breathing the air God provides but rejecting and mocking the idea of His existence. How sad.
First, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. Second, the question of free will vs predestination is interesting to non-Christians as well. Third, I am not rejecting the idea of God's existence; I acknowledge it as a possibility. I do reject rwfromkansas's concept of a "loving" God who arbitrarily dooms billions of souls to hell; I find your theory much more reasonable. But I'll retire from this thread and let you guys fight it out amongst yourselves.
You see, rw, Jim here has no clue what Biblical Predestination is all about. Jim, please see Romans 8:28-30 to get you started and then explain to us what the verses are teaching.
BTW, Jim, what you are "preaching" here is very close to a heresy: that is that Adam is a bad example to follow and Jesus is a good example to follow. Inherent in this belief is the complete denial that man is born spiritually dead.
Unscriptural. The point is that He didn't have to choose any, yet He did.
'Predestination' is simply the fact that God choose all of mankind to be his children and live with him but our exercise of free will - God given - takes us away from Him. Our choice, not God's.
Unscriptural. Our state of being away from God took place with the Original Sin committed in the garden of Eden. We are born and shapen in iniquity, ergo, born without a will to choose God and born spiritually dead.
At Judgement day, when our lives are examined and found wanting, only the blood of Christ will save us, not a human claim that we were 'predestined' to go to heaven so 'let me in'.
Unscriptural. It's true that only the Blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world pays for our sin. No one is saying that "predestination" saves any man. But you are attempting to portray it as such. Simply not so. Notice how you've omitted the fact that in order to see Heaven, one must be born again. You can't leave that out!
Attempting to 'blame' the creator for our eternal fate is foolish.
All blame lies at the feet of Adam.
To attempt to justify that point of view in order to absolve mankind of any complicity in his spiritual fate by cherry-picking scripture and offering 'proof verses' is to misuse scripture, in my opinion.
This does not absolve anyone. Also, this is not "cherry-picking," but an inclusion of all scripture.
Try again.
Thus you believe man has the power to deny God; to overrule His wishes; to accomplish something God Himself does not want accomplished. This puts man above God, a place we most likely agree man can not be. Man can not thwart God.
But while I disagree with most of what you posted, I like your last paragraph. Strange how true that is. I think these contrarians are either first-year college students or non-believers who want to be proven wrong.
They will be.
If I may presume to speak for my brother rwfromkansas, your false notion concerning the nature of man's will is what he is attacking. Gosh, Jim, what you have postulated as free will in an unregenerate sinner doesn't exist anywhere in the universe.
Man has the same free will as God has. But our holy God can't embrace a Lie. In the same way, an unholy sinner cannot embrace the Truth.
(See 1 Corinthians 2:14 for one of the best statements of the Calvinistic position.)