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Santa Barbara Libertarians help win Boy Scout discrimination fight
LP News ^ | February | LP

Posted on 02/15/2002 6:50:19 AM PST by DoSomethingAboutIt

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To: untenured
The absence of libertarian doctrine has failed to eliminate discrimination by tenants and employees.

It has eliminated a great deal of such practices. What was once open and pervasive is now craven and limited.

221 posted on 02/19/2002 11:54:52 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
You're equating race with deviant sexual behavior?

Private property is private property. Government forceing ANYONE into your house is wrong. If that is racially insensitive, tough. Freedom does not = "warm and fuzzy".

222 posted on 02/19/2002 11:54:52 AM PST by southern rock
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To: Smile-n-Win
are no immoral -> are not immoral

(I hope Roscoe will not consider this correction as a racially motivated attack on Hispanics!!!) ;-)

223 posted on 02/19/2002 12:01:43 PM PST by Smile-n-Win
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To: Texaggie79
First, they would be utilizing my tax dollars to be licensed and recognized by the gov as a married couple.

Remove the government from the equation. You know I don't want your tax money to go for that, in fact you should keep your money in the first place. People could get married in a church, or however else they like, and sign a civil marriage contact if they desire. The only difference between this and what we have now is that the state would not be a party to the marriage contact, and would not dictate the terms of the contract. It has no business granting licenses for relationships anyway, because to be perfectly honest, who one dates or sleeps with is none of the state's business.

Second, it sets fourth a president that homosexual relationships are normal and moral.

That's the problem with having morality and law seen as one and the same. Please see post #203. By giving the state the power to sanction and license marriage in the first place, you've just given liberals that big stick I talked about earlier. Now the state is looking at you, holding that big stick, and it wants you to accept gay marriages. If you hadn't made marriage a state issue, and hadn't given the state the power to decide matters of morality, there would be no stick to begin with and you wouldn't have that problem.

I have no problem with states like Hawaii that wish to recognize it. I just won't live there, nor raise my children under such standards.

That's the practical answer to all these problems.

224 posted on 02/19/2002 12:06:24 PM PST by freeeee
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To: Texaggie79

Second, it sets fourth a president that homosexual relationships are normal and moral.

Interesting.

225 posted on 02/19/2002 12:15:19 PM PST by Zon
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To: Texaggie79
An airline captain I knew, with three kids, decided he was gay at about 40.

Does the state have the power to take away his kids?

- 195 posted by tpaine

If charges were brought against him in a state that did not permit gay parents. - TA79 -

Your answer is yes. -- You ignore the 14th amendment. Such a prohibitive law would violate all three provisions of Section 1.

Any state has the power, under criminal law, to remove children from abusive parents. They must use constitutional due process to do so.
The state does not have the power to declare any people 'criminal' before they commit a crime.

'Gayness', is no more a crime than being cursed with an addictive personality.
If an addict abuses his children, jail him. -- Same with the queer.
Otherwise, keep your busybody states nose out of free mens affairs.

226 posted on 02/19/2002 12:24:50 PM PST by tpaine
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To: Smile-n-Win
it is wrong to forbid things that are no immoral, or allow immoral things to be done unpunished.

"Everything not prohibited is mandatory"

Sorry, but I had to say it.

227 posted on 02/19/2002 12:25:51 PM PST by freeeee
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To: tpaine
You should take the issue up with our founders. They set it that way. If a state sees homosexual activity as criminal, they can charge a parent and take away the child. You think Thomas Jefferson would support a witch in keeping his or her child?
228 posted on 02/19/2002 12:29:25 PM PST by Texaggie79
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To: Roscoe
There are plenty of communities in America, with different laws and practices. While I'd like to see the balance of power shift back more in direction of the states and their political subdivisions, that isn't the goal of Libertarianism. It seeks the abolition of community rights, and the establishment of a borderless world.

Only in the context of having this borderless world use the Constitution of the UNITED STATES as a guideline. No libertarian OR Constitutionalist would EVER want a borderless world under the cognizance of something like the UN, for example. And you KNOW that, so your little diatribe is specious and full of barbra striesand.

229 posted on 02/19/2002 12:35:11 PM PST by dcwusmc
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To: Texaggie79
You think Thomas Jefferson would support a witch in keeping his or her child?

Yes.

"...our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry..."
- Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in the State of Virginia

230 posted on 02/19/2002 12:36:03 PM PST by freeeee
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To: freeeee
Ah but witchcraft was not considered a religion.

All attempts to delude the people, or to abuse their understanding by exercise of the pretended arts of witchcraft, conjuration, inchantment, or sorcery or by pretended prophecies, shall be punished by ducking and whipping at the discretion of a jury, not exceeding 15. stripes.

Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments 1778Papers 2:492--504

231 posted on 02/19/2002 12:41:03 PM PST by Texaggie79
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To: Texaggie79
I'd heard that he was a working as a clerk when he wrote that. I don't have a source for this claim though.

If witchcraft isn't a religion what is it?

I challenge anyone to find a definition of religion that includes all major religions and excludes witchcraft, except by specifically excluding it by name. I don't think it can be done.

(No, I don't practice witchcraft.)

232 posted on 02/19/2002 12:45:23 PM PST by freeeee
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To: Kevin Curry
On balance our society no longer meets that criteria, and on the whole the Libertarian Party is ruled by men and women who spurn and ridicule such indispensible notions as Judeo-Christian based morality.

It's not the job of government or any political party of any stripe to see to it that Judeo-Christian morality is taught to the citizens. That is the job of God-fearing Christians who shouldn't be swearing any allegiance whatsoever to any earthly governments nor co-opting these governments to carry out their plans to Christianize the world.

If the society you live in isn't a society comprised of "highly moral, self-disciplined, God-fearing people", then it would seem that the Christians are failing at their task. It's not government's fault that society isn't Christian enough for you, it's solely and entirly the fault of the Christians.

233 posted on 02/19/2002 12:46:47 PM PST by CubicleGuy
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To: Moonman62
The Libertarians didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts...

Yeah, don't you just hate it when people act out of sheer principle?

234 posted on 02/19/2002 12:49:07 PM PST by CubicleGuy
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To: Texaggie79
Take up the issue with the framers of the 14th. -- They saw states violating the rights of free men after the civil war, and wrote an amendment to stop such abuses.

Unfortunately, we have democratic 'majority rule' people, like you, in both political parties, who are ignoring the constitution.

That's why JR set up this forum, in fact. -- Yet day in, day out, some of you 'conservatives' fail to get the picture. A strange blindness, imo.

235 posted on 02/19/2002 12:51:14 PM PST by tpaine
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To: dcwusmc
Only in the context of having this borderless world use the Constitution of the UNITED STATES as a guideline.

False.

236 posted on 02/19/2002 12:52:30 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: tpaine
The 14th assured that all states were bound by the BoR.
237 posted on 02/19/2002 1:01:43 PM PST by Texaggie79
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To: Roscoe
Your statement seems contradictory, although perhaps I am not understanding it. Do "people" have the "right" to determine that landlords and employers in fact don't have the right to rent to and hire whom they choose? If so, do they then have the right to decide, if they are so inclined, that the Boy Scouts can't refuse to associate with gays? Or does the right to hire and employ and choose Scoutmasters as you choose trump the "people's...right to determine what kind of a society they are to live in"? It seems to me that the two "rights" cannot both simultaneously exist.

Roscoe, I think I may have missed your erudition on this idea. Care to take a stab at it? CJ has avoided it like the plague, but an intellectual giant like yourself probably has a good answer for this dilemma.

238 posted on 02/19/2002 1:02:31 PM PST by zoyd
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To: Roscoe
True

False

True

False

True

False

True

False

True

False

True

False

[Roscoe argues]

239 posted on 02/19/2002 1:05:25 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
They saw states violating the rights of free men after the civil war, and wrote an amendment to stop such abuses.

The equal rights, actually.

Those reading the Engligh language with the meaning which it ordinarily conveys, those conversant with the political and legal history of the concept of due process, those sensitive to the relations of the States to the central government as well as the relation of some of the provisions of the Bill of Rights to the process of justice, would hardly recognize the Fourteenth Amendment as a cover for the various explicit provisions of the first eight Amendments. Some of these are enduring reflections of experience with human nature, while some express the restricted views of Eighteenth-Century England regarding the best methods for the ascertainment of facts. The notion that the Fourteenth Amendment was a covert way of imposing upon the States all the rules which it seemed important to Eighteenth Century statesmen to write into the Federal Amendments, was rejected by judges who were themselves witnesses of the process by which the Fourteenth Amendment became part of the Constitution.

ADAMSON V. PEOPLE OF STATE OF CALIFORNIA , 332 U.S. 46 (1947)


240 posted on 02/19/2002 1:07:30 PM PST by Roscoe
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