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The Church and the Holocaust
The Spectator ^ | February 16, 2002 | Paul Gottfried

Posted on 02/15/2002 6:44:35 AM PST by Romulus

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1 posted on 02/15/2002 6:44:35 AM PST by Romulus
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To: BenF
bump
2 posted on 02/15/2002 6:45:06 AM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus
Goldhagen and others who support his views are morally no different than those who believe in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
3 posted on 02/15/2002 6:48:49 AM PST by LarryLied
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To: Romulus
Excellent article.
4 posted on 02/15/2002 6:55:08 AM PST by traditionalist
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: LarryLied
Goldhagen and others who support his views are morally no different

LOL.....I don't necessarily share Goldhagen's views. I've never read his works and have no desire to do so. Consequently, I have had to rely on articles like this for what his views are. But I love how those who are opposed to his views (and who also have probably never actually read what he's written) try to morally equate him and others with various types of evils.

Whatever. I appreciate what you've written. It provides me with more information about your morals than the morals of Goldhagen's supporters.

6 posted on 02/15/2002 6:59:09 AM PST by BenF
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To: Romulus
What a shame you uploaded this. I so enjoyed reading your posts here. Fare thee well, my cyberfriend - may you find a more tolerant and discernible audience elsewhere in the electric ether!
7 posted on 02/15/2002 6:59:32 AM PST by Senator Pardek
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To: BenF
You tell me the moral difference between those who smear the Catholic or other Christian churches and those who smear Jews then. I don't see any.
8 posted on 02/15/2002 7:05:30 AM PST by LarryLied
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To: Romulus
I have previously had no desire to read Goldhagen's work. Frankly, I don't understand it's purpose and I strongly believe that, instead of enlightening, it will only cause negative feelings.

I suppose what Goldhagen thinks he's doing is exposing the truth in the hopes that people will appreciate it. If so, he's wrong. True, there are a few people who will appreciate it. Most will not and will harbor resentment. And, of course, there are those who will refute his positions which only adds to the animosity. Some of the vitriolic language in this article, for instance, impresses me less than if the author took a more logical approach and left out adjectives such as "schlock". I suppose that's impossible given the emotional arguments involved.

9 posted on 02/15/2002 7:05:41 AM PST by BenF
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To: LarryLied
I don't see any.

That's not quite true. I suspect you WON'T see any. There's a big difference, but I will try and explain anyway.

Have you read the Protocols? Admittedly, I have not - I have only read commentaries on them. From what I understand, they are a collection of amazing lies designed with one purpose - to foster hatred of the Jews. And they have been used by some to generate violence and murder. Something more than just "smearing".

Whatever Goldhagen's work is...whether parts are accurate or not...I seriously doubt that it's purpose is to create hatred towards Christians or the Church, or to inspire violence. Now, I haven't read his work so I can't say for sure. Moreover, since Christianity is the predominent faith in this country and throughout most of Europe, I seriousl doubt that violence will result from any reading of Goldhagen's books.

I guess my position is that you could have denounced his work (even though you haven't read it?) without the comparison to the Protocols (which you also haven't read?). It would have made more sense.

10 posted on 02/15/2002 7:12:59 AM PST by BenF
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To: BenF
True, there are a few people who will appreciate it.

Lol back at you. This garbage is a staple of the liberal menagerie. From homosexual activists to the Progressive Caucus in the House of Representatives to Unitarian, Reform and other liberal congregations, books such as this reinforce everything they believe already.

11 posted on 02/15/2002 7:13:03 AM PST by LarryLied
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To: Friend_Or_Foe
I wonder how many people really believe in congenital anti-semitism?

Probably no one. On the other hand, Menachem Begin (OBM) said that Poles received their anti-Semitism with their mother's milk. Whatever. Frequently, the apple does not fall far from the tree. If there is hatred in the home, children learn to hate.

12 posted on 02/15/2002 7:15:26 AM PST by BenF
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To: LarryLied
books such as this reinforce everything they believe already.

Perhaps you're right. I still don't think that excuses your comparison.

13 posted on 02/15/2002 7:17:11 AM PST by BenF
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To: Romulus; Tropoljac; Bluester
Gottfried says, "While the Catholic Church generally treated the Jews wretchedly in the modern period, it treated Eastern Orthodox Christians, particularly in the Fourth Crusade and during the Nazi puppet regime in second-world-war Croatia, even worse."

This is almost equivalent to blaming the Russian Orthodox Church for the persecution of Catholics in the Soviet Union. Pope Innocent III encouraged a crusade, and the Fourth Crusade was the result, but he was not in control of it, and disapproved both of their sack of Zadar (a Catholic city) and of the diversion to Constantinople, and it was Frankish soldiers, who happened to be Catholics, and their leaders, rather than the Catholic Church, who were to blame for the outrages that took place.

Similarly, in WWII Croatia, it was Ante Pavelic and his Ustasha followers, who included some members of the Catholic clergy, but not the Catholic Church as an institution, who committed the massacres of Serbs, Jews, and others (including anti-fascist Croats); the head of the Catholic Church in Croatia, Archbishop Stepinac, spoke out publicly against the racist policies of the regime.

14 posted on 02/15/2002 7:23:01 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: Senator Pardek
I never was good at team sports.
17 posted on 02/15/2002 7:31:50 AM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus
Allan Dershowitz, it should be noticed, is an atheist, and belongs to that crowd who have forsaken religion for the dogmas of the Enlightenment and their own peoples for "humanity."
18 posted on 02/15/2002 7:37:42 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: Verginius Rufus
Pope Innocent III encouraged a crusade, and the Fourth Crusade was the result, but he was not in control of it, and disapproved both of their sack of Zadar (a Catholic city) and of the diversion to Constantinople, and it was Frankish soldiers, who happened to be Catholics, and their leaders, rather than the Catholic Church, who were to blame for the outrages that took place. Venice, which was famous for its resistance to papal leadership, was the principal instigator of the attack on Constantinople and its main beneficiary.
19 posted on 02/15/2002 7:41:48 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: Friend_Or_Foe
What do you think Goldhagen's motive is?

I haven't read his work nor do I have any interest in doing so. I would hope his motive is to uncover the unpleasant truth. However, that is just a hope, based on no facts whatsoever.

20 posted on 02/15/2002 8:14:16 AM PST by BenF
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