Apocalpse at Dresden (long)

Esquire | November 1963 | R.H.S. Crossman

[Arkle]

67 years ago almost to the day...

The article is from 1963. Interesting.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

Bomber Harris basically fell into disgrace after WWII for the nighttime (read, indiscriminate) bombing of Germany.

All that airpower would have been far better spent keeping all the U-boats in the North Atlantic underwater all day and out of mischief at night. It would have shortened the war and saved lives--and property--all around.

[Arkle]

I believe that the motive which prompted us was a very characteristic Anglo-Saxon desire to defend ourselves without preparing for war to win the fruits of victory; without actual fighting, and (if this proved impossible) at least to keep casualties down to a minimum among our own soldiers.

I'm sure the survivors of Bomber Command would be fascinated by this view, given their 50% casualty rate.

[DTA]

Arkle, this topic provoked flame wars before on FR.
Hitler brought hell to German citizens, there is no doubt about that.

The problem is that those who delivered hellfire claim to be angels .

[Mr. Bird]

The Nazis and the Communists dabbled in terror raids on civilian targets. But they were old-fashioned and imperialist enough to hold that the aim of war is not to destroy the enemy, but to defeat his armies in the field, to occupy his country, and exploit its resources

What a crock. The Blitz and the Final Solution defined as dabbling? The summary execution of 10,000 Polish officers by the Soviets was old-fashioned war? The Nazis and the Communists were f****** Evil, pure and simple. Sure, I can regret (vicariously, of course) the killing of innocents in Dresden and elsewhere, but I won't stand for this type of moral equivalence (or worse!) argument.

[Arkle]

this topic provoked flame wars before on FR.

Sorry, I wouldn't want to cause a firestorm...

I just thought it was interesting to look at, particularly in the light of the "war crimes" trial going on in the Hague at the moment and the resulting arguments about "victor's justice".

[cynicom]

Monday morning quarterbacking, with an agenda.

[Arthur McGowan]

The Blitz WAS dabbling in comparison with Dresden. And the Final Solution was not a bombing raid and is not the subject of this article.

[Arthur McGowan]

Remember the basic moral principle of many Freepers: ANY questioning of the U.S. Government, which has never done wrong and has never committed a crime, means you are a Commie, Pinko, maggot-infested, dope-smoking Hippie. This philosophy is known as "conservativism."

[Arkle]

Quick bio of the author for background:

Crossman, Richard Howard Stafford (1907-1974) An erstwhile Oxford don who became an MP in 1945 and served as a Cabinet Minister from 1964-70, Crossman spent a year in Germany in 1930 where he had firsthand experience of the rise of Hitler about which he would write in Plato Today (1937). He worked as a journalist and then for the government during the war, in propaganda and psychological warfare, before being elected as Labour MP in 1945. He ended his career as a journalist and by writing up his controversial political diaries.

[MadIvan]

I've seen propaganda films of Goebbels asking the German public if they wanted total war, and they shouted back "Ja!". I have zero pity or compassion for them; we know from research that the populace largely supported Hitler. Meanwhile members of my family were killed in their raids on London. There is a cost attached to the German support of Hitler, this is it, and that is the end of the discussion.

Regards, Ivan

[Arkle]

How many times do we have to keep going over this Dresden thing

Sorry, I did a search and couldn't find anything recent. A more thorough search showed that it seems to come up about once a year, usually around the time of the anniversary. For something of this enormity, I don't think that's excessive.

[Arkle]

I have zero pity or compassion for them

You have zero pity or compassion for children, burned to death because they were born in Germany? What a nice man you are. I don't think Harris or Churchill would have had zero pity or compassion. They did what they thought was necessary to win the war, regardless of their normal human feelings of pity. There's a difference.

[MadIvan]

They didn't feel any particular pity or compassion for our women and children. Forgot that bit, did you?

I'll be damned if I forget that, nor will I forget the heroism of our brave RAF lads.

Regards, Ivan

[MadIvan]

By the way, my heritage is partially Norwegian - and my great uncle who lived Haugesund, Norway was a victim of the Nazis as well: he was tossed out of his home in the middle of winter, with his pregnant wife, to make way for an SS officer. I didn't hear of them feeling particularly compassionate to women and children then either.

They sowed the whirlwind and it was time to reap it.

Regards, Ivan

[Arkle]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Forget that bit, did you?

You're quite right about the heroism of the Bomber Command crews. Their casualty rate was phenomenal. Many, if not most of them were (and are) human enough to feel sorry for the people killed in the raids.

[freedomson]

Great read, good post.

But, Sherman summed it up best with three words, war is hell.

[MadIvan]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It's wrong to shoot Nazi pilots and soldiers then. They have wives and children and families and people crying for them at home too when they don't return. Since two wrongs don't make a right, we should merely let them walk all over us and be smug in the satisfaction that when they shoot and kill us and we don't shoot and kill them.

Sorry, won't wash. It's war. It was a war that they waged against civilians first, and by opening that door, they deserved the punishment they got in return. What else could they have expected when they cooked babies in their cribs in London, in Plymouth, in Coventry.

Regards, Ivan

[DTA]

Arkle hit the nail on the head by opening the question of victor's justice in the light of The Hague.

The Hague (ICTY) is not important for what it claims to be doing ("the biggest war crimes trial after nuremberg") but because of what it is conceived to achieve. Under smokescreen of prosecuting "Serbian Hitler" (and Serbs as nazis), by using exausted PR fumes, ICTY is used as a vessel to launch ICC ( International Criminal Court). Unlike Moscow trials of the 1930's that were accepted because of fear, ICTY is accepted out of free will.

When ICC iron gates shut in a month or two ( 8 more countries to ratify it), then will Americans realize ICC annuls rights granted by U.S. constitution.

Then, it will be too late. The "justice" served to Serbs in Hague today, will be served to Americans tomorrow. What Nazism, Communism could not do, "humanitarians" will: TOPPLE U.S. Constitution.

With U.S. taxpayer's money !

Farfetched? Read ICTY and ICC statute and compare
. For example: No jury,double jeopardy,use of anonymous witnesses, evidence hidden from defense, court writes its own laws...

Then, read U.S. Constitution and kiss it goodbye

Or contact The Liberty Committee