Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: angelo
I've had these passages cited to me as evidence that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice acceptable to God to atone for all of our sins. You are the first Christian who has not claimed to me that in Jesus was fulfilled all of the Law.

Yeshua told us in no uncertain terms.

Matthew 5:18 (ESV)
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Matthew 5:17 (ESV)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Interestingly, many Christians will go on to say that Messiah's fulfillment of the Law made the Law unnecessary, and so He abolished it. They do this because they do not understand that Yeshua was a Jew speaking to Jews. Yeshua was Torah observant, as were the Jewish leaders of His Talmudim.

In the idiom of the time, to abolish Scripture meant to incorrectly interpret it. To fulfill Scripture meant to interpret it correctly. Yeshua did precisely that. He reminded the other Pharisees (for the evidence is that Yeshua was a Pharisee) that the relationship of G-d to His people, and His people to Him, is a heart relationship from which behavior flows. We do not become the holy priesthood by following Torah, but by dedicating ourselves to G-d. It is natural that the dedication would cause Torah observance, for Torah is G-d's wisdom and instruction.

What does this mean for the sacrifice? I thought I put this into the previous post, but if it wasn't clear, Yeshua's sacrifice was the Reality of which all the sacrifices called for in Torah were but shadow. The bulls, rams, turtle-doves, etc, could never atone for all sin for all time. They could only atone for specific sins in the past. They were a foretaste of what G-d had in mind from the foundation of the world.

Did Yeshua abolish (in our modern understanding) or fulfill them? He did not abolish them and did much more than fulfill them. He fulfilled what they could never be.

Does that mean that Messianic Jews will have to perform the sacrifices if the Temple is ever rebuilt? I will defer a definitive answer to a Messianic Jew. However, I would believe not. Yeshua has shed all the blood that must be shed for any sin that has been comitted or will be comitted.

But not because He fulfilled Torah. He fulfilled something much more real.

I'm sure this didn't help much, but you did ask.

Shalom.

112 posted on 02/14/2002 12:40:13 PM PST by ArGee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies ]


To: ArGee
In the idiom of the time, to abolish Scripture meant to incorrectly interpret it. To fulfill Scripture meant to interpret it correctly.

Interesting. Do you have a source for this? I don't find 'abolish' anywhere in the Hebrew canon. The other references in the Christian scriptures include

by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances... (Ephesians 2:15)

Then I said, `Lo, I have come to do thy will, O God,' as it is written of me in the roll of the book." When he said above, "Thou hast neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), then he added, "Lo, I have come to do thy will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:7-10)

That is, he abolishes the sacrifices offered according to the law in order to do God's will. The passage from Hebrews might make sense with the interpretation you offer, but the one from Ephesians is questionable--"'correctly interpreting' in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances"?

Now let's look at "fulfil".

So Solomon expelled Abi'athar from being priest to the LORD, thus fulfilling the word of the LORD which he had spoken concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh. (1 Kings 2:27)

Seems to me to be saying that Solomon carried out or accomplished the word of the Lord, not that he correctly interpreted it. Likewise

He took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and to his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. (2 Chronicles 36:20-21)

While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, "O King Nebuchadnez'zar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you, and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field; and you shall be made to eat grass like an ox; and seven times shall pass over you, until you have learned that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will." Immediately the word was fulfilled upon Nebuchadnez'zar (Daniel 4:31-33)

I don't see any evidence from the Hebrew scriptures of "fulfil" being used in the sense you suggest. Matthew uses it the same way repeatedly, to mean the carrying out or accomplishment of some prophecy, not the correct interpretation thereof.

He reminded the other Pharisees (for the evidence is that Yeshua was a Pharisee) that the relationship of G-d to His people, and His people to Him, is a heart relationship from which behavior flows.

I have no problem with this.

We do not become the holy priesthood by following Torah, but by dedicating ourselves to G-d.

I don't think a Jew can separate the two. You cannot dedicate yourself to God without being obedient to Him. Likewise, you cannot truly be obedient to God without dedicating yourself to Him (remember that loving God with your whole heart, soul and might is itself one of the commandments - Deuteronomy 6:5).

Yeshua's sacrifice was the Reality of which all the sacrifices called for in Torah were but shadow.

And this is where you and I fundamentally cease to agree. Human sacrifice is not an acceptable sacrifice, and no one else can atone for your sins (Ezekiel 18:20).

I will be in meetings most of the day tomorrow, and then I will be observing the Sabbath, so I probably won't be able to reply back to you until sometime on Sunday. Shalom.

118 posted on 02/14/2002 7:09:00 PM PST by malakhi
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson