[Exnihilo]

Steve, let me post this one more time.. and I request that you rebut each point, point for point.. okay? or find someone who can.. nobody's even tried yet..

libertarian image	libertarian reality
Image: non-coercion, no initiation of force	Reality: libertarians legitimise economic injustice, by refusing to define it as coercion or initiated force
Image: moral autonomy of the individual	Reality: libertarians demand that the individual accept the outcome of market forces
Image: political freedom	Reality: some form of libertarian government, imposing libertarian policies on non-libertarians
Image: libertarians condemn existing states as oppressive	Reality: libertarians use the political process in existing states to implement their policies
Image: benefits of libertarianism	Reality: libertarians claim the right to decide for others, what constitutes a 'benefit'

[The Green Goblin]

Some US employers require their employees to smile at all customers, or lose their job. I call that coercion: libertarians call it freedom of contract. There is no point in further discussion of these issues: they are examples of irreconcilable value conflicts.

Conservatives would also call it "freedom of contract." This guy is nothing more than a liberal leftist!!

[steve-b]

libertarians legitimise economic injustice, by refusing to define it as coercion or initiated force

This trots out the old communist notion of "economic injustice" and redefines the success of one individual as an assault upon all less successful individuals.

Reality: libertarians demand that the individual accept the outcome of market forces

Nonsense. If I don't like the #1 brand, I can buy the #2 -- or #200 -- instead. This is the fundamental reason why the free market is not coercive (unlike politics, where everyone is stuck with what 50%+1 of the voters deserve).

Reality: some form of libertarian government, imposing libertarian policies on non-libertarians

More nonsense. People who want somebody else to tell them what to do, beyond the limited role of libertarian peace-keeping governance, can follow any personal, religious, social, etc. restrictions they like.

Reality: libertarians use the political process in existing states to implement their policies

Dismantling the abuses of existing states is obviously easier when using the existing mechanisms against them. Think of it as political judo.

Reality: libertarians claim the right to decide for others, what constitutes a 'benefit'

There's no meaningful assertion here to refute.

[The Green Goblin]

The Libertarian Party of the United States, for instance, seeks to impose a libertarian system on the United States. It is an imposition, and can not be anything else. Unless they are prepared to accept the division of the country, they will have to deal with millions of anti-libertarians, who reject the regime entirely. They might call the riot police the Liberty Police, they might call the prisons Liberty Camps, but it's still not 'political freedom'.

According to this guy's idiotic argument, political freedom cannot exist anywhere, since every political system advocates itself. What an idiot.

[The Green Goblin]

But, as the Californian electricity crisis showed, if the experiment fails, its supporters will simply claim that it was not sufficiently neoliberal or libertarian. So even the evidence for the instrumental claims of libertarians is a matter of interpretation and preference: it would be futile to use it as a basis for discussion.

Oh, come on! Even conservatives and honest leftists will tell you that there was nothing libertarian about the California "deregulation" of the electric companies. To even call it "deregulation" was a horribly Clintonian murdering of the word's definition.

[spunkets]

" Reality:
libertarians legitimise economic injustice, by refusing to define it as coercion or initiated force

Because to do so is illogical. The use of the term injustice requires a definition of justice. It's inappropriate to qualify an outcome w/o knowing what the qualification refers to in the first place. Economic outcomes depend on the contracts made between the parties involved. Libertarians require that coercion be absent as a motivating force in the creation of the contract and operation toword outcome. If it's required to be absent from the beginning, the resultant economic outcome wasn't a result of coercion.

" Reality:
libertarians demand that the individual accept the outcome of market forces"

That's called individual responsibility. To force the consequences of the outcome of individuals actions on others is evil. It amounts to unwarrnanted coercion.

" Reality:
some form of libertarian government, imposing libertarian policies on non-libertarians

Libertarians don't coerce policies. Libertarians insist that individuals have certain rights that are inviolate. They protect life and sovereignty of will. The coerce nothing, but the protection of those rights. That means that authoritarian dictates are forbidden. If other folks wish to be subject to authoritarian dictates, by their own decision, they are welcome to do so.

" Reality:
libertarians use the political process in existing states to implement their policies

Libertarians are peaceful folks that refrain from violence, until the level of tyrany becomes unbearable. They otherwise do what they can to peaceably assert their rights.

" Reality:
libertarians claim the right to decide for others, what constitutes a 'benefit'

Nonsense they do no such thing. Folks have the right to determine what they consider a benefit.