Not Yours to Give

personal archives ^ | Provided as courtesy by Charles Starr for Congress

[Chapita]

I am an insulin-dependent diabetic with advanced retinopathy, and I am limited to reading a computer where the fonts may be enlarged. I am going to check with the Biloxi library to see if these books are available in audio.

[RonDog]

Would Davy have approved of the billions in Federal cash given to the families of the 9/11 disaster?
(No flames please, it's just a question).

And a GREAT question it is, Paulus Invictus!

From the original "Not Yours to Give" article that we are attempting to authenticate here, the answer would SEEM to be that Col. Crockett's response to any proposal to appropriate FEDERAL money for the victims of 9/11 would be the same, viz:

"...I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this house, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please to charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money..."

[RonDog]

Anyway, I ordered the Ellis book today, and I have three books waiting for me at the library. Now I have to get this one I guess.

And, after you finish THOSE, here is the OTHER book that Dr. Lofaro recommended, from www.amazon.com:

Hardcover - 252 pages (June 1989)
Univ of Tennessee Pr; ISBN: 0870495925 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.01 x 9.35 x 6.33

From Book News, Inc.
Focuses on the significance and legendary image of the man. Considers his European roots, the history of Crockett worship, his influence on Tennessee politics and on 19th-century music, and the discovery of a "lost" silent film. Annotation copyright Book News, Inc. Portland, Or.

[michigander]

I was unaware of your vision limitations. I hope you'll be able to make use of this link. It's an interesting read although it doesn't really shed any light reguarding the issue we're discussing here.

David Crockett: His Life and Adventures - complete text of this book by John S. C. Abbott.

[michigander]

I'm curious if anyone else stumbled across this?

Colonel Davy Crockett Delivering His Celebrated Speech to Congress on the State of Finances, State Officers, and State Affairs in General

---

"The broken fenced state o' the nation, the broken banks, broken hearts, and broken pledges o' my brother Congressman here around me, has riz the boiler o' my indignation clar up to the high pressure pinte, an' therefore I have riz to let off the steam of my hull hog patriotism, without round-about- ation, and without the trimmins. The truth wants no trimmins for in her clar naked state o' natur she's as graceful as a suckin colt i' the sunshine. Mr. Speaker! What in the name o' kill-sheep-dog rascality is the country a- comin' to? Whar's all the honor? no whar! an thar it'll stick! Whar's the state revenue? Every whar but whar it ought to be!

"Why, Mr. Speaker, don't squint with horror, when I tell you that last Saturday mornin' Uncle Sam hadn't the first fip to give to the barbet! The banks suspend payment, and the starving people suspend themselves by ropes! Old Currency is flat on his back, the bankers have sunk all funds in the safe arth o' speculation, and some o' these chaps grinnin' around me are as deep in the mud as a heifer in a horse-pond!

"Whar's the political honesty o' my feller congressmen? why, in bank bills and five acre speeches! Whar's all thar patriotism? in slantendicular slurs, challenges, and hair trigger pistols! Whar's all thar promises? every whar! Whar's all thar perfomances on 'em? no whar, and the poor people bellering arter 'em everywhere like a drove o' buffaloes arter their lazy keepers that, like the officers here, care for no one's stomach, but their own etarnal intarnals!

"What in the nation have you done this year? why, waste paper enough to calculate all your political sins upon, and that would take a sheet for each one o' you as long as the Mississippi. and as broad as all Kentucky. You've gone ahead in doin' nothin' backwards, till the hull nation's done up. You've spouted out a Mount Etny o' gas, chawed a hull Allegheny o' tobacco, spit a Niagary o' juice, told a hail storm o' lies, drunk a Lake Superior o' liquor, and all, as you say, for the good o' the nation; but I say, I swar, for her etarnal bankruptification!

"Tharfore, I move that the ony way to save the country is for the hull nest o' your political weasels to cut stick home instanterly, and leave me to work Uncle Sam's farm, till I restore it to its natural state o' cultivation, and shake off these state caterpillars o' corruption. Let black Dan Webster sittin there at the tother end o' the desk turn Methodist preacher; let Jack Calhoun settin' right afore him with his hair brushed back in front like a huckleberry bush in a hurrycane, after Old Hickory's topknot, turn horse- jockey. Let Harry Clay sittin' thar in the corner with his arms folded about his middle like grape vines around a black oak, go back to our old Kentuck an' improve o' lawyers an' other black sheep. Let old Daddy Quincy Adams sittin' right behind him thar, go home to Massachusetts, an' write political primers for the suckin' politicians; let Jim Buchanan go home to Pennsylvania an' smoke long nine, with the Dutchmen. Let Tom Benton, bent like a hickory saplin with ull rollin', take a roll home an' make candy "mint drops" for the babies:--for they've worked Uncle Sam's farm with the all-scratchin' harrow o' rascality, 'till it's as gray as a stone fence, as barren as barked clay, and as poor as as turkey fed on gravel stones!

"And, to conclude, Mr. Speaker, the nation can no more go ahead under such a state o'things, than a fried eel can swim upon the steam o' a tea kettle; if it can, then take these yar legs for yar hall pillars."

---

Supposedly another Congessional speech that I've (so far) been able to find no documentation for (other than the link provided).

[michigander]

Hmmmm. Check this out, it may explain quite a bit about all this missing documentation.

---

From: Reporters of Debate and the Congressional Record

In 1824, Gales and Seaton established the Register of Debates. This publication provided an abstract of most House and Senate floor statements, separate from the reporters' newspaper. Meanwhile, the Intelligencer had moved away from its Jeffersonian roots, and now promoted industrial capitalism and other Whig party philosophies. Not surprisingly, when Andrew Jackson's Democrats came to power in Congress, Gales and Seaton's popularity declined. Although they continued to publish the Register for another eight years, Gales and Seaton never again dominated legislative reporting. Instead, they began work on the Annals of Congress, a forty-two volume set of pre-Register debates, reconstructed from newspapers, journals, and stenographic reports.

Supported by President Jackson, the new printing partnership of Francis Preston Blair and John Cook Rives founded the Congressional Globe in 1833. Whigs distrusted the Globe's version of House and Senate proceedings, and called Blair and Rives "habitual falsifiers of debate." The partners were met with such hostility that they allegedly carried concealed weapons in order to protect themselves against angry members of Congress.

---

Congressional history sensored?

[RonDog]

I'm curious if anyone else stumbled across this?

Colonel Davy Crockett Delivering His Celebrated Speech to Congress on the State of Finances, State Officers, and State Affairs in General

That looks like the quote that I posted earlier in this thread, on posts 129 and 131.

I was ALSO baffled by Crockett's apparent "broken English" in that reference.

[michigander]

That looks like the quote that I posted earlier in this thread, on posts 129 and 131.
Doh! I guess that answers that question.

Also,
Congressional history sensored?
c-e-n-s-o-r-e-d
DOH!!

[RonDog]

That looks like the quote that I posted earlier in this thread, on posts 129 and 131.
Doh! I guess that answers that question.

LOL! That's O.K. No one ELSE has figured out what it means yet... ;)

(You can still be the first to DECODE it!)

[Chapita]

Thank you!

[Chapita]

This is great! Thank you so very much! I normally have to wait for the audio tapes to be made, before I can 'read' a book.

I have copied the whole book to my hard drive so I can read it while not connected to the Net.

Look for a FR mail from me.

[Walt Griffith]

"Horatio Bunce"

Has anyone established his existence outside of this particular story?

Since this would have been a spending bill, it should have originated in the House of Representatives. Did it or had the Senate already forgotten Constitutional duties by this time?

[4CJ]

Bookmarked. True or not, the federal government should only appropriate monies that benefit all Americans.

[Huck]

NO confirmation on Horatio. RonDog had a neat theory about a Samual Bunch. I forget how many posts back that was.

[RonDog]

Has the case for the Relief of Susan Decatur been ruled out as the naval officers widow?

It does appear to fit the description. Although, I can't find a recorded speech by Crockett, there is a great one given by a Mr. Chilton on pages 3818 - 3821.

The plot THICKENS...

Perhaps I spoke too soon! I just this e-mail answer from Dr. Paul Hutton , Professor of History at the University of New Mexico, and Executive Director of their Western History Association:

Dear RonDog:

I have not read the article,
But Crockett did indeed give a speech against the pension
(which was, by the way, for the widow of Stephen Decatur).

Paul Hutton

> RonDog wrote:
>
> Hi, Dr. Hutton - Perhaps you (or some of your graduate students) can
> help us.
>
> Some of the members of the conservative news forum
> www.FreeRepublic.com are currently attempting to establish the FACTS
> behind the classic "Not Yours to Give" article which has been widely
> circulated over the Internet, in a discussion thread at:
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/614198/posts?page=125#125
>
> Our general consensus to date is that David Crockett DID in fact vote
> against allocating federal funds for the widow of a popular military
> officer, and MAY have had a political mentor similar to the man
> identified in the article as "Horatio Bunce," although he was almost
> certainly NOT in Congress when they voted to provide aid to the
> sufferers of the tragic fire in the District of Columbia.
>
> You seem to be very well-informed about Colonel Crockett. What is
> YOUR opinion about "Not Yours to Give?"
>
> Thank you,
>
> RonDog

(FWIW, I used my REAL NAME, address and phone number in my e-mail to Dr. Hutton - NOT RonDog)

It looks like we are BACK to the drawingboard! (Or, not?)

Note that I did not mention WHICH widow that we thought Col. Crockett had voted against: Brown OR Decatur.
He volunteered that information about "the widow of Stephen Decatur." Good job finding that, michigander!

[Huck]

Note that I did not mention WHICH widow that we thought Col. Crockett had voted against: Brown OR Decatur. He volunteered that information about "the widow of Stephen Decatur."

I am putting my skeptic's hat on, RonDog. First, while you didn't mention Decatur by name, you linked to the thread here at FR where we DID mention the name. Second, how does he know Crockett made the speech? It is a little hard to believe that he would know that, and not know of this story, given that it appears to be the sole source of the tale. Could you press him for a source? A kindly reply?

Anyway, Horatio Bunce is the real wild card in this whole tale. Any leads there?

[Chapita]

This has turned out to be a great exercise in the reality of "the Information Super-Highway"!

[michigander]

But Crockett did indeed give a speech against the pension
(which was, by the way, for the widow of Stephen Decatur).

As I recall (I'm not going to go back and look), her request for relief was a VERY drawn out piece of legislation.
If you haven't already, check out that oratory by Mr. Chilton, he really put the screws to it.

[RonDog]

Note that I did not mention WHICH widow that we thought Col. Crockett had voted against: Brown OR Decatur. He volunteered that information about "the widow of Stephen Decatur."

I am putting my skeptic's hat on, RonDog. First, while you didn't mention Decatur by name, you linked to the thread here at FR where we DID mention the name. Second, how does he know Crockett made the speech? It is a little hard to believe that he would know that, and not know of this story, given that it appears to be the sole source of the tale. Could you press him for a source? A kindly reply?

Anyway, Horatio Bunce is the real wild card in this whole tale. Any leads there?

Not sure how much of this thread that Professor Hutton has actually waded through. My guess is "zero."

I like your idea of concentrating on the "Bunce" character, though, so here is the e-mail that I just sent back to Dr. Hutton:

Dear Dr. Hutton:
Thank you for your advice about Susan Decatur.
This, however, has INTENSIFIED our conflict.

Many of us have championed a DIFFERENT "military widow," the widow of Major General Jacob Jennings Brown.
Representative Crockett ALSO "delivered [his] sentiments in opposition to the principle" of providing government "relief" to HER on April 2, 1828, see the bottom right-hand corner of:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llrd&fileName=006/llrd006.db&rec Num=308
(The vote for relief of Susan Decatur on February 15, 1831.)

Crockett's opposition to Widow Brown better fits the alleged timeline, which has only been sporadically examined, i.e. at:
http://www.constitution.org/cons/crockett.htm

According to the widely promoted story from the 1884 biography (by Edward S. Ellis) "The Life of Colonel David Crockett," whose particulars we are attempting to document, Col. Crockett was "converted" to the principles of strict Constitutional opposition to funding "charity" from the federal budget by a "Horatio Bunce," after which he voted against relief for a widow.

The heart of this wonderful (but potentially apocryphal) anecdote is ripped out by an earlier example of his "conversion." ;)

Perhaps resolution of our quandary lies in the TRUE identity of the story's "Horatio Bunce" who was:
"...widely known for his remarkable intelligence and incorruptible integrity," and for being
"...the oracle of the whole country around him."

Do you know of a "Samuel Bunch," who "commanded a regiment of mounted yeomen from Tennessee during the Creek war, serving under General Andrew Jackson?" (See: http://www.famousamericans.net/samuelbunch/ )

Thanks again for WHATEVER erudition that you can share with us.

RonDog

[Huck]

FIngers crossed