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Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation??
Ask Father Murray Watson ^ | Father Murray

Posted on 01/02/2002 1:15:38 PM PST by Theresa

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To: AlGone2001
Grace is an act?

According to Rome it is.

81 posted on 01/03/2002 2:31:32 AM PST by Iowegian
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To: Iowegian
Your post in 57 made its way to my desktop. That is information that I'd never seen. I am in total shock. I've noticed that there aren't many defending these writings.
82 posted on 01/03/2002 2:37:17 AM PST by AlGone2001
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To: RnMomof7
FYI
83 posted on 01/03/2002 2:43:41 AM PST by Iowegian
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To: AlGone2001
I am in total shock. I've noticed that there aren't many defending these writings.

Yes they are rather startlingly frank words which don't jive at all with what the average RC says they believe about all those who don't follow their ways to the letter, including their version of the sacraments and being subject to the Pope. But SD will be on here soon giving you his usual spin on "development of doctrine".

84 posted on 01/03/2002 2:50:07 AM PST by Iowegian
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To: Theresa
"Why would Christ die for that? Pagan idol worshippers "follow their conscience." What poppycock. "

You should not be so smug. What if you had been born a Hindu? What if all your ancestors for centuries were Hindu and you loved them and respected them. What if the ties that bound you to them and to your land and culture were intertwined with Hinduism? Are you so smug as to think that just hearing the gospel once or twice could overcome all that conditioning?

Please see my post #12 and meditate on the words I have capitalized and bolded. "Invincible Ignorance" means something, and you have just given a good example of such. "May" also means something, it is not an assurance. God will ultimately be the judge of everyone's culpability (i.e. guilt) of how they responded to His Gospel. Those with a cultural conditioning or bias against Christ or against the Catholic Church may be excused.

SD

85 posted on 01/03/2002 5:14:40 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: k2blader
Hm, just for clarification, are you saying that the Catholic church is the "only Church" ?

There is only one Church, the Catholic one. All other Chrstians have at some point deviated from Her.

That I, as a Baptist, am not part of the "only Church" and thus am not saved ?

This I did not say. All Christians, by virtue of their Baptism, are joined together to the one Church. Your culpability for remaining outside of the Church's official boundaries and teachings is for God to determine.

SD

86 posted on 01/03/2002 5:18:27 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
So, Dave are you saying here that you have to be a member of the Catholic (captiol C) Church to gain salvation?

Becky, you know darn well that I believe all Christians are "attached" to this one Church and that I have great faith in God's mercy for those who can not see the necessity of the Church.

SD

87 posted on 01/03/2002 5:20:30 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Jeff Gordon
Are you saying that if they honestly and totally believed that child sacrifices were holy in the eyes of their god, they would be saved?

One would think not, that this act would offend the Law God wrote on our hearts. But it is not ours to judge.

This, of course, is very hypothetical. A sane man anywhere in today's world would have to have a sense of wrongness about child sacrifices.

You obviously haven't heard of "abortion."

SD

88 posted on 01/03/2002 5:22:04 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: henbane
When Becky asks SoothingDave "are you saying here that you have to be a member of the Catholic (captiol C) Church to gain salvation?" his answer must be a resounding "YES!"

Iowegian has presented an unimpeachable set of historical Papal pronouncements that makes this basic article of Catholic faith abundantly clear.

There is no interpretive argument possible here on such a fundamental point of Catholic Doctrine.

You don't know me very well, do you?

SD

89 posted on 01/03/2002 5:23:28 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: AlGone2001
If any one saith, that by the said sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred through the act performed

Grace is an act?

Try reading for comprehension. Grace is "conferred through the act." Do you think that there are people inside of your radio talking, or do you realize that the voices are conferred through a process of transmission and reception? If you don't turn the radio on, you don't get the message. Does this mean that your act of turning it on makes the entire process happen?

I'm sure that we've been told that grace and works were not the same. Grace is a gift. Since when did we earn a gift?

Since when did I "earn" grace through a sacrament? It is freely given. I obtain grace from God by asking for it. So do you. I ask and receive through the signs Jesus gave us. You ask through prayer. We are both "acting" when we receive grace.

SD

90 posted on 01/03/2002 5:28:41 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Dave I am so confused. I could swear you and all the catholics have been saying over and over on the Neverending Story that this claim of no salvation outside the catholic church was something the church did NOT teach. So whats the truth, does the RCC teach that or not? Yes or no?

Becky

91 posted on 01/03/2002 5:30:21 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SoothingDave
Becky, you know darn well that I believe all Christians are "attached" to this one Church and that I have great faith in God's mercy for those who can not see the necessity of the Church.

NO I DID NOT KNOW THIS. This seems to me a diliberate twisting of words you all have spoken on the other thread. You all never put it this way. You just told me I was a liar because I said I was taught this very thing. Now you are twisting here for this article to make it fit.

Becky

92 posted on 01/03/2002 5:35:20 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: AAABEST;theresa
I'm starting to worry that they saw a picture of the Pope over the holidays and all of their heads exploded.

what a charming Christian thought (sarcasm)

93 posted on 01/03/2002 5:41:26 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: k2blader;soothingdave
That I, as a Baptist, am not part of the "only Church" and thus am not saved ?

until Baptists begin speaking mass in latin, accept the pope as a vicar of Christ, and worship the mortal mother of Christ as a co-redeemer, I'm afraid so (sarcasm)

94 posted on 01/03/2002 5:50:37 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Dave I am so confused. I could swear you and all the catholics have been saying over and over on the Neverending Story that this claim of no salvation outside the catholic church was something the church did NOT teach. So whats the truth, does the RCC teach that or not? Yes or no?

It is true, but the meaning is not as "black and white" as the Feeneyites or a plain reading of such would imply.

There is only one Way that we are joined together as the Body of Christ - through the One Church. Salvation comes into the world in the person of Jesus, and He established one Church to bring His Salvation to the world. The Church is necessary, for She is the principal instrument through which God's grace enters the world.

Everyone should then, to assure their salvation, be a formal member of this Church and profess what She professes. However, we make allowances for God to have mercy on those, who for reasons beyond their control, do not formally join the Catholic Church.

That's it. Those not formally part of the Catholic Church who are not culpable for this fact can be saved anyway. But this salvation is only possible because these people will be, in some mystical way, "inside" of the Church.

SD

95 posted on 01/03/2002 5:58:12 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
NO I DID NOT KNOW THIS. This seems to me a diliberate twisting of words you all have spoken on the other thread. You all never put it this way.

Then I am sorry. What do you think Steven's little inside joke name change is all about? Because the only way that I can consider him to be a brother Christian is if I consider him "invincibly ignorant."

You just told me I was a liar because I said I was taught this very thing. Now you are twisting here for this article to make it fit.

I don't recall this subject being discussed over there, but if it was I assure you I am not lying here or there. Before Vatican II, we took a dim view of Protestants and their culpability for being such. Now we have a more accepting view.

SD

96 posted on 01/03/2002 6:02:43 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Revelation 911
until Baptists begin speaking mass in latin, accept the pope as a vicar of Christ, and worship the mortal mother of Christ as a co-redeemer, I'm afraid so (sarcasm)

Do you really want me to respond to this? Let's start with simple, human decency. Both "Latin" and "Pope" are proper nouns that are capitalized in the English (there it is again) language. We know you can use the shift key, cause you managed to capitalize "Baptist." We understand Protestants don't follow the Pope, nor do you follow the Queen of England. Or would you needlessly offend the British by writing that "queen of england?"

SD

97 posted on 01/03/2002 6:06:00 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: Theresa
Biblically there are three ways to get to heaven (be saved)

The first is to obey your conscience. (I'll dig up the scriptures later if anyone wants them. I believe this is in Romans) Of course the moment you violate your conscience you are doomed to hell. There is no way to atone for a broken conscience.

The second way is to follow the LAW completely. (Genesis through Deuteronomy) Of course the Hebrews found this impossible even in a simpler time with far greater influence by the religious leaders. Here breaking the law can be atoned for by sacrifice but the slightest, un-atoned infraction sends you to hell

The third way (and only one that really works) is through faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and His atoning sacrifice. Here sin is already atoned for.

Notice that the concept of 'church' never enters into salvation as defined by the bible. Salvation is between you and God. While the bible does command us to fellowship with other believers this fellowship is NOT required to be saved.

There is no salvation in the Catholic Church. There is no salvation in the Baptist Church. There is no salvation in any church. THERE IS ONLY SALVATION IN THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST!

God Save America (Please)

98 posted on 01/03/2002 6:06:12 AM PST by John O
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To: bookwurm
Sometimes, people become debased or degenerate and so their consciences are no longer attuned. But in their OWN mind, they think they are on track.

I disagree. One of the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith as defined by scripture is that we are totally depraved, that is that we (all humans) are degenerate from our birth, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate us, we don't become degenerate, we become regenerate. There is no "sometimes" about it.

99 posted on 01/03/2002 6:17:37 AM PST by P8riot
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To: DallasDeb
Roman Catholics believe devout Muslims are saved.

On what basis do you believe this, especially when Christ himself says that "no one comes to the Father but by me".

100 posted on 01/03/2002 6:25:46 AM PST by P8riot
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