I just thought that as long as you were being presumptuous, I'd return the favor.
Short of some sort of supernatural creator, the universe must have (1) brought itself into existance, or (2) the universe has always existed (which you mentioned).
You haven't been brainstorming on this one very long have you? Either the universe has existed for all time or it has not. If it has not then there must have been a time before the existence of the universe. If there was a time before the universe existed, and if it is true that something cannot come from nothing, then something must have existed at a time before the universe existed and from which the universe came. Since this thing existed when the universe did not exist, then this thing must be something other than the universe. If "nature" is defined as everything in the universe, then this thing could be termed "supernatural". The same argument for "universe" can then be applied to this "supernatural" thing, ad infinitum.
That's about as far as I can take it with logic. It sure is a far cry from logically proving that there is or was some willful, or thinking supernatural being.
And then there's another branch of the either-or argument in which the universe has existed for all time. I don't see how this is somehow a less "rational option". It seems to make some sense if you take "time" to be part of the universe rather than some mysterious extrinsic property that somehow can exist independently of the universe. In that case, the universe and time, which is part of the universe, have always existed together and started together.
it seems like a logical impossibility
It may seem like it to you, but I fail to see the logical contradiction that proves it to be impossible.
Do you believe that the universe has always existed?
I don't find it a matter of belief so much as a matter of semantics. If you, as I do, define "universe" as "all that exists", then the question is rather silly since without the universe there is no existence. But of course there is nothing more prima facie true then the fact that existence exists. I suppose people who ask such questions are really wondering if there is something in the universe that somehow defies the laws of the universe, or at best, that is manifested by laws that some of us do not understand.
Uncaused-ness is a supernatural characteristic
O-Oh, is that right? I didn't know that. I-I guess I'll have to inform mythelf.
God-like quality of eternal existance.
I suppose we can all define "God-like" however we wish.
I won't be surprised or upset.
I wouldn't dream of upsetting you. Thank you so much for that out.
I just thought that as long as you were being presumptuous, I'd return the favor.
Are you not an atheist? Can you see why I made such an assumption after having read your earlier posts in this thread?
It is fallacious to believe that something can come from nothing. When trying to explain the possibility of the universe's existance, you can kind of shift things around by varying your suppositions, but all you really change is the particular facet of this logical fallacy at which you ultimately arrive if you exclude the possibility of a supernatural creator.
The first possibility you mentioned has time preexisting the universe, which is impossible if you define the universe as "everything that exists". The infinitely repeating process of redefining "supernatural" is actually a logical artifact resulting from the incorrect supposition that time can exist apart from the universe. This leaves only the possibility that the universe has existed for all time. You wrote:
I don't see how this is somehow a less "rational option". It seems to make some sense if you take "time" to be part of the universe rather than some mysterious extrinsic property that somehow can exist independently of the universe. In that case, the universe and time, which is part of the universe, have always existed together and started together.
This was in response to my statement:
I skipped a step -- ignoring the possibility that things have always existed -- because it seems like a logical impossibility.
I was unclear here. I have no problem with time being an intrinsic part of the universe, existing along with the universe and beginning when the universe begins. What I think is impossible is that the universe has existed for an infinite period of time.
If you suppose that the universe has existed for all time, then there are two possibilities for "all time" -- it is either an infinite amount time or a finite amount of time. The infinite-time possibility circumvents the need for a supernatural creator, but it means that our universe must be infinitely old, which it doesn't appear to be the case (I also think there's a purely logical argument that can be made against the concept of an infinite amount of time existing). The finite-time possibility appears to jive with what we can observe about our universe, but it requires the existance of a supernatural creator, who can exist outside of time, to have brought the universe into existance some finite time ago.
In regard to the logical possibility of a supernatural something existing which brings the universe into existance, you said:
It sure is a far cry from logically proving that there is or was some willful, or thinking supernatural being.
My position is that the fact of existance demands the existance of a supernatural creator. I don't think that the fact of existance proves that the creator is willful or thinking. The existance argument cracks open the door to the possibility of a God with those qualities, but it certainly doesn't provide the proof.
I said:
Uncaused-ness is a supernatural characteristic
To which you replied:
O-Oh, is that right? I didn't know that. I-I guess I'll have to inform mythelf.
What natural things can happen without being caused?