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Man's shoes hid pentrite, could not have destroyed plane: report
Unknown News ^ | Monday December 24, 2001 | Yahoo! Singapore - News

Posted on 12/26/2001 3:46:23 PM PST by pa_dweller

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To: RANGERAIRBORNE
But black power is a low explosive, incapable of detonating, only deflagrating. I was talking about "the usual high explosives" that fill hand grenades. (Use of black powder for grenades ended ~100 years ago.)

That's the difference between a high explosive and a low explosive - you don't have to confine the high explosive to make it go bang. On the other hand, you do need a detonator. Pentrite is a high explosive - no confinement needed. Fortunately, it isn't enough of a primary explosive that it went up when the perp was trying to light it.

61 posted on 12/26/2001 6:08:59 PM PST by coloradan
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To: coloradan
The principle is the same- of course "high explosives" are more powerful per unit weight, but an undirected explosion is not particularly damaging. If you confine the explosive and direct the superheated gases of the blast, THEN you can do some real damage.

But what do I know? I only taught Demolitions in Special Forces. Just a rank amateur. What I DO know is that this moron's feet and probably lower legs would have gone missing in a big hurry, with the bloody fragments probably striking innocent people and causing serious injuries.

Sounds like life in prison without possibility of parole for the Shoe Bomber! (Oh, let me on that Jury!!!!)

62 posted on 12/26/2001 6:25:28 PM PST by RANGERAIRBORNE
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To: chainsaw
Who are they trying to kid.

Thanks for posting the picture about what 200 g of Semtex will do to a pressurized
Boeing 747.
I think (for the Flight 63 situation) it was first posted by "cynwoody", then
posted again by "gritty" after I simply posted the URL.

I don't know if this stuff called penitrite is close to Semtex in power...
but an FBI agent I saw on the tube said that it doesn't take much of an explosion aboard
a pressurized plane to cause real damage.

The French may be right about their contention that it would not have brought the plane down...
but I suspect any fair Frenchman would admit this was a case of the French "covering their derrieres".
63 posted on 12/26/2001 6:31:56 PM PST by VOA
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To: NJJ
Zone Alarm has been beeping like the Roadrunner the last week on my computer.
64 posted on 12/26/2001 6:34:06 PM PST by razorback-bert
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To: coloradan
Here is some clarification on black powder as an explosive.

Both Blackpowder and Pyrodex are considered class “A” explosives and should be treated with the respect due them.

Remember that it only takes a spark to set off either blackpowder or Pyrodex.

That even means static electricity, care must be taken when transferring powder from one container to another as steel and iron and even plastics and glass can cause sparks and set off the powder. The amount of powder in the average powder horn is more than equal to that of an hand grenade so it pays to follow the rules...

65 posted on 12/26/2001 7:33:03 PM PST by po'boy
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To: Poohbah
IIRC, pentrite doesn't have the same yield as C-4 or Semtex.

If the pictures on post #33 show what 200 grams does to a pressurized 747...
maybe it wouldn't take more than 200 grams of pentrite to do the job on a pressurized 757...

Maybe it wouldn't blow the plane apart...just do enough damage that a pilot couldn't keep the plane
in the air...
66 posted on 12/26/2001 7:43:01 PM PST by VOA
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To: pa_dweller
These are the French police - the same ones who let this guy onto the plane despite airline employees' suspicions - and they haven't even seen the bomb - who are trying to convince us "it wasn't so bad".
67 posted on 12/26/2001 7:45:07 PM PST by DonQ
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To: FractalSphere

Aloha Air flight 243, 4/28/88

68 posted on 12/26/2001 7:48:41 PM PST by dighton
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To: RANGERAIRBORNE
The principle is the same- of course "high explosives" are more powerful per unit weight, but an undirected explosion is not particularly damaging. If you confine the explosive and direct the superheated gases of the blast, THEN you can do some real damage.

You're right about directing the explosion - that's what shaped charges do. For that, one needs a conical hole in the charge, something that grenades lack, but that bazookas possess. Gunpowder lacks the power to be useful in such shaped charges in any case. The good news is, it's not likely the perp's shoe was packed in a suitable way to make a shaped charge - but the amount and type of explosive he apparently had wouldn't have needed any shaping to blow his legs off up to his waist, if not his neck.

69 posted on 12/26/2001 8:49:51 PM PST by coloradan
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To: po'boy
Here is some clarification on black powder as an explosive.

That is the legal definition, as opposed to a chemical definition. Even steam is an "explosive" in that it can blow up a boiler if the pressure exceeds the rupture strength.

What I meant when saying that gunpowder "doesn't explode" has to do with the nature of the explosion. In a "deflagration" each granule of powder burns, and ignites its neighbor by means of a thermal effect, and that the pile has been set off is communicated from grain to grain by a thermal effect - each one ignites the next like so many match heads in a matchbook. This process is subsonic.

But in a "detonation" each particle actually explodes, and each granule of an explosive sets off the next one by a shock wave, which is supersonic.

Black powder burns without any such shock wave, making it a "low explosive." Dynamite is a "high explosive." However, some high explosives such as C4, can also burn gracefully without exploding, if you simply ignite them.

Legally, they are all "explosives" but then again so is small arms ammunition, and fireworks such as sparklers and Roman candles that don't explode at all. That wasn't what I meant.

70 posted on 12/26/2001 9:08:11 PM PST by coloradan
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To: coloradan
Everyone that reads this thread needs to understand that black powder does not need to be contained to act as an explosive.

If you pour a mound of black powder on the ground and throw a match on it it will explode.

The BATF has classed it as a Class A explosive because of that very reason.

Modern smokeless gun powder on the other hand is classified as a propellent. Pour a mound of IMR 4046 on the ground and throw a match on it, it will not explode. It will just burn vigirously. Same with handgun powder such as Herc Red Dot.

There have been many people injured because they didn't understand the nature of black powder and in their careless use of it have endangered themselves and those close by.

71 posted on 12/26/2001 10:15:17 PM PST by po'boy
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To: Catspaw
Just holding his foot against the plane's wall when it detonates would likely put a hole in the side of the plane. At 40,000 feet the skin may well tear away destroying the plane. Also the guy was apparently sitting either over the wing or very near it to the back. If there is a fuel tank under the wing in the center like a 747 it could have destroyed the plane.

Remember flight 800? A passenger directly above the center fuel tank with an exploding shoe could be devastating and may well not leave much evidence of the crime. At mid flight the tank isn't full which makes it much more volatile. Being over the ocean much evidence is never recovered or destroyed by the water.

72 posted on 12/26/2001 10:30:34 PM PST by DB
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To: Sungirl
A poster on another thread said his seat was directly over a fuel tank. I don't know if that's been confirmed.
73 posted on 12/26/2001 10:33:21 PM PST by 185JHP
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