Harvard Now Sees the Error of Its Wages

The Boston Globe, via Common Dreams ^ | Dec. 24, 2001 | Robert Kuttner

[summer]

So what? If the low pay isn't meeting their needs, they are surely free to choose another profession.

That's exactly what they do. That's why this country will be short several million teachers in the coming years. Maybe you will apply? :)

[Principled]

Is it your point that non-govenrment schools are bad because teacher compensation is lower in non-government schools?

Comparing public and private schools is very difficult. One is a monopoly, the other is competitive.

Students of competitive private schools not only pay their private school tuition, they are also forced to pay for the monopoly public school tuition of others.

Consider: if not for the "double tuition" paid by private school students, more money would obviously be available to pay teachers and other employees of provate schools. As it is now, tuition of privae schools is artificially capped by the aformentioned forced monopoly double tuition.

The forced payment of public tuition is the enemy of the private school, and the enemy of employees of private schools who desire increased compensation.

BTW you are not the only one around here who has taught in the public schools.

[Principled]

Students in public schools often drop out, too. Then, you pay the real end cost, for jailtime of these kids.

So what? Are you saying that it is the public schools that causes them to drop out? What are you saying? How is this comment related?

[summer]

You said students are "stuck" in public schools. I'm pointing out to you that many leave as soon as they can. So, they are not "stuck" -- they are gone.

[summer]

Comparing public and private schools is very difficult. One is a monopoly, the other is competitive.

Private schools do not pay competitive salaries or anywhere near it. They do not even pay as much as their public school counterparts, and they know they don't have to, because teachers who teach in private schools are usually already fed up with public schools and their problems. BTW, everyone who is a teacher knows that private schools pay LESS.

[Principled]

If the low pay isn't meeting their needs, they are surely free to choose another profession.

That's exactly what they do. That's why this country will be short several million teachers in the coming years. Maybe you will apply? :)

Yes summer, this is how the free market operates. Individuals and business place value on goods and services. Goods and services (including labor) are priced to produce another good or service that must eventually be sold to individual consumers. If not enough individual consumers perceive value in a good/service, then the good/service isn't sold.

In time, we hope, individuals will enhance their perceived value of education. Then folks would be willing to pay more for that service. As it is now, folks don't see the same value in public education that they DO see in private education.

Public education must become valuable to consumers. How to do this is the frequent debate.

Like riding public transportation, public education has become an "inferior good". That is to say, the more money you have to spend, the less likely you are to utilize public education - and similarly, the less money you have, the more likely you are to utilize public education.

The value of public education must increase. That much is plain to see. IMHO, removing them from government control would do the trick.

BTW, it's not only money that draws one to and keeps one teaching.

[summer]

Yes, I know all that already.

[summer]

IMHO, removing them from government control would do the trick.

Well, I not convinced that this is the answer, because I have seen, up close, what happens when education becomes a business, as in private schools: for teachers, everything gets worse, in terms of salary and benefits.

[summer]

IMHO, removing them from government control would do the trick.

Well, I am NOT conviniced that this is the answer, because I have seen, up close, what happens when education becomes a business, as in private schools: for teachers, everything gets worse, in terms of salary and benefits.

Private school have two distinct advantages: (1) they do not have to take every students; and (2) they get rid of students very quickly.

Here is a joke told amongst public school teachers: Yes, we can immediately improve test scores, if you let us do what private schools do -- we pick and choose which students we take into our school.

[Principled]

Private schools do not pay competitive salaries or anywhere near it.

That's because they cannot afford to do so. Their students are forced to pay not only private school tuition, but also pay public school tuition.

They do not even pay as much as their public school counterparts, and they know they don't have to, because teachers who teach in private schools are usually already fed up with public schools and their problems.

Well, one of the reasons that they can get teachers from public schools with less pay is that they don't have the same government-related UNsolveable problems. However, to draw teachers from the private sector, private schools DO have to pay. Thankfully, they can choose to pay whatever they want to whomever they want. Their hands are not tied by government-union negotiated pay scales. It is the case that public school teachers moving to a private school are always offerred less, for just the reason you state.

BTW, everyone who is a teacher knows that private schools pay LESS.

You don't have to be a teacher to know this. It is obvious that a business which prices its service at more than 5 times the cost of its competitor will have to cut costs where possible to stay in business-

[Principled]

Here is a joke told amongst public school teachers: Yes, we can immediately improve test scores, if you let us do what private schools do -- we pick and choose which students we take into our school.

It's not a joke. It's part of what must happen if public education is to survive without becoming even more of a joke.

[summer]

Thankfully, they can choose to pay whatever they want to whomever they want

"Thankfully" is not what the priuvate school teachers would say in the private school where I taught, as they couldn't even rangle a 401K plan out of the owners, who were raking in it. Yes, they can leave teaching, and eventually, they probably will too. People like you live in a dream world of theory, without any real knowledge of the facts.

[summer]

private, and wrangle -- yes, I know how to spell.

[VinnyTex]

thanks for the link! So Barbara Ehrenreich is off limits in Kuttner's world. Geeeshh, no wonder the guy is such a blithering idiot.

[Principled]

People like you live in a dream world of theory, without any real knowledge of the facts.

Oooops. You don't know this at all. You don't know WHAT knowledge I have to make my assertions. Until you discover this, you sound foolish making this claim.

[summer]

And, you do not know everything about me, either. So, we're even. :)

[Principled]

And, you do not know everything about me, either

I never claimed that you have no knowledge of the facts, did I? However, that IS what you said about me, and there is no way for you to know this.

You made a claim about me and you are unable to substantiate it. Saying "we're even" is your way of trying to forget about that?

I've been in private schools, teaching and admin. I've been in public schools too. I made my money in business before getting into education. According to what you've claimed, it is you who has little knowledge of "the facts". You claim to only have been a teacher. You did not claim to have been in admin nor in business- that explains your lack of market function knowledge.

BTW, those owners of private schools who are "raking it in" deserve every penny they earn. If you want to earn more, you can become an owner yourself, or do something that brings you whatever you want. There is no reason to resent the money that others earn, you have the same shot they do at earning.

Your position is one that of a union socialist.

[summer]

BTW, those owners of private schools who are "raking it in" deserve every penny they earn.

BTW, you know nothing about the criminal background of the owners of that private school, so your claim above is laughable. And, the teachers who teach in those schools deserve a retirement plan. And, you are wrong in every one of your assumptions about me. But - Happy new year!

[Principled]

Happy New Year to you too, summer!

If you ever want to have a serious discussion about what can/should be done about education, ping me.

[Principled]

BTW, you know nothing about the criminal background of the owners of that private school, so your claim above is laughable.

You didn't say they were criminals! You made no reference to their character whatsoever. Certainly I wasn't to assume they were criminals. Going back and changing your position is not going to garner credibility.

And, the teachers who teach in those schools deserve a retirement plan.

Then by all means, they should find a job that provides a retirement plan! If the job they have doesn't provide a retirement plan, why the hell did they take the job in the first place?????

And, you are wrong in every one of your assumptions about me.

Funny, I didn't assume anything about you. You said you had taught in public and private schools. That's all I referenced. Making stuff up doesn't cut it. But - Happy new year!