Dying boy, 15, gets wish: losing virginity

Chicago Sun Times ^ | 12/23/01 | BY BENJAMIN ERRETT

[garbanzo]

Thing is that I kinda agree but not fully. I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of "hidden law" but I think this entire episode probably is best understood by that concept, i.e. a kind of semiconscious hypocracy in which we acknowledge that it's not right to intefere in family decisions but we'll look the other way given the circumstances.

[woofie]

That's never in doubt. Your question was raised by Stalin, too, when he asked how many divisions the Pope has.

Hmmmm.... and I didnt even ask a question...

[FITZ]

I don't believe in interfering in families. Parents who are supporting their children have the final say whether I like it or not. If the kids' parents had abandoned or abused him, it would be a different matter. I might look at baptizing him into a religion differently than bringing a prostitute for him but even still, I would not have a right to baptize other people's children. I might not like what atheists teach their children but if I was a nurse or other hospital employee, I would not have the right to go behind their backs and make my own decisions for their kids.

[FITZ]

If the child wanted Catholic Last Rites and the parents were Jewish, I think it would be wrong to bring in a priest without their knowledge. The most I should do is try to help the child talk with the parents about his wishes but they still have the final say.

[garbanzo]

I understand that - however my point is that it's generally better in some highly individual cases to "bend" a rule than to insist that a rule be followed everywhere and in every situation. That's the whole point of "hidden law" - it serves as buffer between civil society and the government. By "looking the other way" in certain cases we often have a smoother society than by insisting that rules be followed to the letter always and forever. For example, it's generally considered bad form to publicly expose someone's adultery even though we consider it to be wrong.

[garbanzo]

I'm not sure that even in such a circumstance the parents would have the final say. This isn't a piece of property here - it's a person who has to have some say in his own life. Parents of course have certain legal and moral responsibilities towards there children but not property rights. I think parents can be consulted in such matters, but it is the child who is the patient here and his rights have to be respected as well.

[FITZ]

I'm not sure that even in such a circumstance the parents would have the final say.

Is it only when they're dying or do I have the right to make decisions about your minor children behind your back even when they're going to live?

[BibChr]

These are the Conservatives who wish to conserve not the liberty of the American Revolution, but the libertinism of the Sexual Revolution

That's very well put. They imagine they can preserve and enjoy the fruits of a Biblical framework, while whacking away heartily at the roots. Folly of a uniquely self-destructive sort.

Dan

[Freedom2specul8]

I respect your thoughtful response and I do apologize to ''assume'' that you laid full blame on the parents. I should have wrote something like "Do you believe that parents are more at fault for bad teenage behaviour". I strongly disagree with that, unless of course the parent is neglectful, abusive etc.. I'm talking about those teens who reject good parenting for whatever reason.

Unfortunately, the article in case doesn't mention the parenting skills, the child's upbringing, his schooling, his social skills etc.. I'd say he wasn't too smart, hiring a ''prostitute''.. This tells me him and his buddies were very ignorant and careless in SO MANY WAYS. Naiveness at its best.

In my humble opinion, what a child does outside of a parents control is the child's responsibility..

There is a proverbs that is fitting in most cases.. raise a child in the way he should go, and when he is older, he shall not depart from it. This tells me that teens sway from parents guidance.. That's how bible instructors have explained it to me. I think it's true. Rebellion or acting out as a teen is somewhat normal in the sense that they are trying to gain independence and test boundaries in a different way than when they were younger.

I am NOT giving them excuses..heaven knows they are accountable for their actions.

[DWSUWF]

"...Yes, I guess we'll disagree, but you left out the most important part of that post, and I can't understand why..."

By replacing the central portion of your post with an ellipsis I acknowledged its existence without using bandwidth unnecessarily.

Purely a courtesy to the forum owner.

[FITZ]

In my humble opinion, what a child does outside of a parents control is the child's responsibility..

Only in this case it was other adults ---the hospital staff --which overrode the parent's authority.

[DWSUWF]

"...On what do we disagree? That 15 year olds have sex on the brain? That he was honest and courageous enough to ask for it even though he must have known there'd be a backlash?..."

Let me try to clarify it for you...

I disagree with your conclusions, with the philosophy of your post, without commenting one way or the other on your observations regarding the mentality of 15 year old boys.

My original comment was in response to the article, and those remarks stand without modification.

Your replies are both subsequent to that post, and entirely unsolicited by me. 'Bottom Line'... You either understand what it means to 'disagree' with someone, or you don't. If you don't there's frankly very little I can do or say here to be of further assistance to you.

[DWSUWF]

I find a lot in your reply to agree with.

And I agree that the article conveys no useful information about the unfortunate boy's parent's child-rearing skills.

Life seldom provides us with all the data we'd like to have before answering, making comments, deciding on a course of action, etc.

I'm going with what I regard as the 'house bet' in my remarks.

And I'll be the first to admit that the entire situation is a tragedy, on any number of levels.

[Demidog]

You shouldn't really neglect your mind for the sake of your penis.

You really shouldn't be handing out advice to your betters.

[rockfish59]

you said 'master'!

[garbanzo]

The issue isn't legalities or "rights" here - this is mainly a interpersonal matter that is outside of legal issues. I simply can't make a rule which will fit all circumstances. In general, the wishes of parents are to be respected. However there are cases where someone might do something that a parent may disapprove of - I can't cite a proof example but it's simply saying that a simple rule can't govern all the complexities of life and that sometimes a general rule might have to be broken for some purpose. It's debatable whether or not this represents one of those examples but the key point isn't parental rights vs. government but rather how do we deal with highly exceptional circumstances on a practical level - and ideology of whatever form simply can't help much in those places.

Ideology is helpful in the normal course of events because it allows us to make good decisions under normal or common circumstance. It usually isn't built for handling the exceptions and I think much of the angst comes from attempting to apply an ideological standard for a situation that's outside the normal bounds.

[Hildy]

Courtesy... and convenient for your argument. But that's OK, because it's Christmas and all :)

[The_Reader_David]

The Fathers warn us to attend to our own repentence. Christ warns us that we will be judged with the judgement with which we judge.

You will note that I advised my fellow Christians on FR to examine their own souls, and cited sins of the sort mentioned in Christ's "extended" version of the Law: lust rather than adultery, wrath rather than murder.

Folk writing condemnations of the unfortunate young man from across the Pacific in an electronic forum do nothing to improve morals sexual or otherwise in New South Wales and do not offer the young man either correction, a route to repentence or consolation in his suffering. I fear they do little but heap condemnation on themselves.

[Doc On The Bay]

...."off Track,"...."Decent Family".....

You are referring to a "SEXUALLY MATURE" Human Male, Sir!

The "Boy" is CLEARLY past interest in "Barbie Dolls & Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!!"

He apparently understands, empathizes with, & wishes--as a LAST REQUEST--to experience one of the more Powerful Human/Biologic Forces--Knowing his life will End soon, He Wished to experience That Which Generates our Species!

We are Dealing, Here, with a Dying Adolescent!---! It is a KINDNESS to grant him this "Experience!"

HE REQUESTED IT!!

Doc