[gjenkins]

"By the time one reaches middle age, its limitations have become apparent."

Its limitations were apparent before I decided to be a libertarian ... when people get frustrated with others, they usually try to control others. Control has been our dominant mode of interaction for centuries, and that is a lot of history and habit to combat.

[nopardons]

Try millenia. Morality laws, have been in place, in all counties and cultures, from time immemorial. Those who claim otherwise, don't know history. Man is NOT inherrently "good" nor moral. There NEVER was a Rousseauian " Noble Savage", and those who trn ablind and jaundiced eye, to those they disagree with, but allow to indulge in any manner of behaviors, are the ones, who must ignore consequence of actions in order to do so.

Libertarians are NOT Conservatives . Consrvatives and Libertarains are NOT compatable. The Libertarians who say , well yes, the LP platform and I don't agree on this, this, this, and THIS, but I am STILL a Libertarian ; fool themselves. Outside of this forum, the vast majority of Conservatives don't even know anything at all about the LP, nor LIbertarains. Once people here actually find out about the LP, and come face to face ( so to speak ) with Libertarians , they don't like what they see ! In REAL LIFE, the LP is shrinking ; NOT growing !

Historically, no matter what the Libertarians like to claim, this country was NOT formed on Libertarian philosophy ! The Libertarian movenment, cherrypicked what they liked / absconded with / purloined certain theories / philosophies from the past, welded this onto a far, far, FAR leftist bunch of things, and came up with Libertarianism. There is far MORE compatabilty with the GREENIES and Libertarias, than between the GOPers and Libertarians.

There ARE consiquence for ALL actions. If a society is " used " to one thing, and all of a sudden that mode of governance way of life is elimnated, chaos runs rampent. Incrimentalism is how we all arrived at this pont, and incrimentalism is the ONLY way, that can be used, to extricate us from the mess. UPTOPIANISM has always been, and is a pipe dream. Libertarianism IS a UTOPIAN pipe dream; nothing more !

Then, thee are those Randians, who believe that " ATLAS SHRUGGD " is a viable roadmap, of how things can and should be. WRONG ! The ONLY book of FICTION which has EVER changed a culture, ad that in a VERY miniscule way, is Dickens' " A CHRISTMAS CAROL " !