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To: Mark Bahner
If you knew even 1/1,000 th., of what you imagine that you do, your replies MIGHT make some sense. As it is, you have now brought DOPE into the mix, and reinforced the concept that legalizing dope, is the true, SOLE , iny interest of Libertarians. LOL

Okay, though I am utterly bored by you people, who don't know historical facts, ignore consequences / can't imagine what they woud be, based on previous history and human nature, and live in your own, tiny, imagined world , I'll repect just a very few incontrovertible FACTS ; just for YOU. : - )

No matter what Libertarians seem to think, NO EMPIRE, NO NATION, NO STATE, NO COMMUNITY, NO TRIBE, NO FAMILY has EVER functioned WITHOUT moral / vice laws. NONE ! A live and let live policy, results in chaos and problems for everyone. Mankind doesn't change, only technology changes.

If you just take European colonies, in America, prior to there even being a unified set of colonies, those in charge, had moral / vice laws, ruled with an iron fist, and did things that would make you shudder. Facts have a nasty way of destroying assumed positions.

All acts have connsequences. One person's actios, DO really have a ripple effect upon many others, whether they like it or not. The Constitution provides for both House to make the laws of the land. The president can veto any Act or Bill. Vetos CAN be overturned, but I hope that you knw all this stuff , as well as what it takes for the Supreme Court to do what they have been granted the power to do . Since .Article 4, Section 2, Clause 1 states that : " The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states ." , the legalization of dope, in one state, would make it legal ( or at the least , throw all into a quandry ! ) in ALL of the others. This is the crux of the matter, regarding same sex marriage being made " legal " in one state. So, there goes the " STATES RIGHTS " issue .

Prior to the PURE FOOD AND DRUG ACTS , the free market did less than NOTHING, to protect the populace from tainted meat, adulterated butter, or watered down milk. Neither did it protect them from the effects fro patent medicine, or the abuse of certain narcotics, opiates, and alcohol. The PREAMBLE, to the CONSTITUTION contains the following : " promote the general welfare." These few words, gave the government the power, to that which would benefit / protect EVERYONE ; even IF that meant that some people's personal " pursuit of happiness " ( doing dope ) , is curtailed / infringed upon.

People have the " RIGHT " to try to either ammend the Constiution or try to repeal what is in it. Until EITHER of those things happen, the law is the law, the government has the right and duty to enforce the law, and complaining about one thng, or another, on an internet site, does absolutely NOTHING at all, to change anything.

Prior to the CIVIL WAR, the Abolutionists, said that America's alcoholism was a far LARGER problem than slavery was. American, from colonial times was known as THE worst country, when it came to public drunkeness, and abuse of alcohol. That only grew worse. Recreational dope usage was NOT common then, nor even possible ; opium was unknown here, heroin didn't exist, crack, crank, SPEED, PCP, EXTASY ( or however dopers spell it ) , and a whole host of other things were NOT available . When they did become available, and the cultural changes occurred ( by omission of knowledge, as in the FIRST wave of addicts , or by comission, in the 1960's ) the government had an OBLIGATION , given it by the CONSTITUTION, to " promote the general welfare ", and THAT is exactly what it HAS tried to do.

Prohibition , no matter WHAT spurious things you care to CCP or quote , DID cut the alcohol consuption, of the populace of the USA, way down. The PURE FOOD & DRUGS ACTS, did indeed stop the cause of indirect / unintentioal alcoholism / dope addiction from patent medicines, such as Lydia Pinkham's . This benefitted the entire nation.

Republicans have ALWAYS wanted " smaller government ", lower taxation, and ALL of the " good " stuff , which the LP purloined from the GOP ; now irrationally claim as the LP's sole provenance . If ANYONE is " blind " ; it is the LP, and Libertarians !

One may have a full plate of wishes ; getting those wishes into the realm of reality , takes patience, understanding, and fighting against the tide of propaganda, apathy , and the DEMs ! Political naivete, delusions, and abject lack of historical / political knowledge will only frustrate the fulfillment of those desires. WE LIVE IN A REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC ! Libertarian rule will ONLY become maifest, at the point of a gun / revolution / coup , which will NEVER happen !

295 posted on 12/29/2001 12:28:47 PM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
"The Constitution provides for both House to make the laws of the land. The president can veto any Act or Bill."

Perhaps you ought to try actually reading the Constitution. The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, and Congress is NOT authorized by the Constitution to violate the Supreme Law of the Land (i.e., the Constitution). This is precisely what Congress (and the President) do by passing and enforcing the Controlled Substances Act...to pick only one example from literally hundreds.

"People have the " RIGHT " to try to either ammend the Constiution or try to repeal what is in it. Until EITHER of those things happen, the law is the law,..."

"People" don't change the Constitution, the government (specifically, Congress and State legislatures) changes the Constitution. And the government is NOT authorized to pass laws that violate the Constitution. Those laws that violate the Constitution are illegitimate, because they violate the Supreme Law of the Land (the Constitution). This is true, even though the 9 idiots that make up the Supreme Court can't or won't read and follow the Constitution enough to strike down unconstituional laws.

"...the government had an OBLIGATION , given it by the CONSTITUTION, to " promote the general welfare ", and THAT is exactly what it HAS tried to do."

Try reading Madison's writings on the "general welfare" clause. It's quite clear that the "general welfare" clause was merely an introduction to Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution. It most certainly did NOT give the federal government powers beyond those specifically enumerated (listed) in Article I, Section 8. Controlling drugs is NOT one of the authorities given to Congress by Article I, Section 8. Therefore, WITHOUT A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, ALL federal laws regarding drugs are unconstitutional.

"Prohibition , no matter WHAT spurious things you care to CCP or quote , DID cut the alcohol consuption, of the populace of the USA, way down."

That's irrelevant. Federal Prohibition of alcohol was clearly NOT in the best interests of the United States...otherwise, a Constitutional amendment to repeal Prohibition would NOT have passed.

But even that's irrelevant. The relevant point is that the alcohol prohibitionists at least had the decency to pass a Constitutional amendment, so they didn't violate The Law (the Supreme Law of the Land, the Constitution) when they passed a federal law banning alcohol. The bozos who passed and enforce laws against other drugs haven't had the decency to do that. Instead, they themselves break The Law. (And then bozos like G.W. Bush, John Ashcroft, Robert Bork, Antonin Scalia, and Clarence Thomas have the nerve to actually proclaim that they care about "law and order!" "Order" maybe! "Law"...fageddahboutit!)

"One may have a full plate of wishes..."

On my "plate" is that conservatives will, at some time in the future, actually care about following the Constitution! Now THAT'S a pretty unrealistic wish...considering that conservatives, over the entire 43+ years I've been alive, have given absolutely no indication that they have a general desire to follow the Constitution!

"WE LIVE IN A REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC !"

We're SUPPOSED to live in a Constitutional Republic! It's too bad very few conservatives pay attention to that fact!

298 posted on 12/30/2001 8:29:18 AM PST by Mark Bahner
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